AI regarding single player CC

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stef van Remy, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    Heyho,

    I like to ask to explain the AI. I wonder about some things.

    First of all I like to say that the AI in general is wonderful as I had about 30+ single player races in championship mode since the update. What I have experienced in those races was more than awesome. Battles between the AI so many times, so hard even with the AI crashing or going off track and so and. I also had a race where 5 (!!!) AI cars got a drive through penalty (as I got also). This was and still is awesome.

    When I first started a single player championship I discoverded some pain in the ass. As I did 2 CC it was likely the same procedure. One AI opponent was fighting for the win in races. Just one and the same out of all the other AI cars in every race.

    For my first CC in GT3 it was K. van der Linde. He did win all races I did not.

    This did end up in a CC where I was forced to win nearly every single race to become the champion. This was boring because then I also could have run single races. But I wanted to fight for a CC title with with not beeing forced to win every race. Just like in real life.

    So I changed the setup of single player CC. My setup is this :

    Each round two races per track.

    90 min training sesssion
    12 min quali
    First race : 40 min with mandatory pitstop, sequence start is quali result
    Second race : 20 min with mandatory pitstop, reversed result of race one for the start (does just effect the first 8. Rest is starting from end position of race one)

    I did this to „mix up“ the best drivers in the second race and therefore to change the amount of point each driver gets out of a race weekend. The 20 min session is important to be that short as the best drivers could easily manage to win from starting from place 7 or 8 for ex. And we do not want this !!!

    So this is mixing up the CC in a way that is really cool. Please see my results running a GT3 CC on 107 %.
    r3ecc1.PNG r3ecc2.PNG

    And now to the real problem…

    In all those races it was the same procedure. For ex. At Hockenheim National the AI is running a 1.27.xxx in training session. In Quali session the do a 1.25.xxx or sometimes a 1.24.xxx. In the race then they do again more like in training session running a 1.26.xxx to 1.27.xxx.

    If you could keep up with the quali session results you are going to kill them in any race not running at least that long you are in the need to run full load.

    Now when I go up with the strength of the AI the quali results are no longer reachable for me and I end up 16 to last place. In the race itself I am still able to fight with the AI.

    I would really like to know how is the fuel load oft he AI cars ???? When I am running a 90 min training session the AI is pitting after doing 48-52 laps on tracks with about 3.5-3.8 km length.

    This means to me the AI is running a t session with FULL load.

    Also I am more than sure that the AI is running with full load each race no matter how long it is.

    I did a test with my beloved wife ähm Corvette C7 running with full load against the AI and what should I say. This is matching the times of the AI.

    So as I understand the AI is programmed in a way that tyre wear is very important. So the AI is running each race in a way it could be a marathon !

    This means to me that for having the best experience with the AI you need to run races with 90 min at least without mandatory pistops. This would mean you need to be more careful with your tyres and all cars will run with full fuel load. And the AI is also forced to pit becasue running out of fuel.

    It is very hard to explain all my thoughts about R3E regarding the AI but I do have loads of questions as R3E is my total fav game.

    So please dear devs explain the AI a bit more. And please add some more features for setting up the single player CC mode. Diff points for diff race length or pitstop race one yes race two no and so on….
     
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  2. dante3003

    dante3003 Member

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    Maybe racing games could learn from other genres.
    Let's say Fifa.

    Every AI driver in game gets actual attributes, 0-100 for different aspects. Example:
    78 for cornering
    89 for pitting
    69 for qualifying
    45 for "coolness"
    and so on...

    This of course would also end up in the same drivers being in front. But this should already be different for different track layouts. One driver is faster in Monza as another one is faster in Zandvoort by default. On the other hand some drivers could take out other drivers because they are more likely to produce accidents.

    On top of that you could put some sort of a randomized multiplier that resembles the form on the day. Which allows other drivers to get up front from time to time and better drivers to perform weaker. Just like it is in the real world.

    So I don't know much about programming or AI...but this would make sense for me.

    But to make it clear, overall I already like the AI and fighting with them.
     
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  3. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    Good thread.

    Regarding individual AI performance: more variation is definitely needed between races and also between each session during a race weekend. In real life, how often will a driver set a great qualifying lap but fail to consistently match that pace during the race...or vice versa? Having a situation where one driver dominates a custom championship doesn't make for a good single player experience.

    Regarding AI fuel load: I have long suspected that the AI runs every session with a full or heavy fuel load. In qualifying, the AI don't give themselves merely enough fuel for two or three hot laps, instead running the whole session start-to-finish on one (heavy) fuel load. This must distort the AI/player performance balance in qualifying.
     
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  4. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    I could swear I have seen almost one AI car pitting during quali. Maybe a crash with damage forced this car to do so.

    I also have had a race with mandatory pitstop where I wondered about my pos. Two cars in front of me could not be there. In the last lap both of them pitted. Do not know if this was a bug. They surely did not stop for mandatory otherwise they would have not leading the race at the point I recognized this.

    I wonder if the quali pace is the real AI percentage. And in the race the AI has a look for the collected data on each track/car and sets its pace close to this no matter if its really matching the AI choosen before the race. If its not then I think the pace of AI has for sure a range. For ex. 100 % goes from 1.20.xxx to 1.23.xxx and if the AI is comparing the collected data and recognizes that you just can run a 1.24.xxx it will set its pace to the lowest possible time. In this ex then 1.23.xxx.

    I am going to run my next CC with 50 min / 20 min race with full fuel load always.

    I would like to compare times of AI from diff users on some AI levels or at least the level 110%. Quali as training as race. Therefore the setup regarding the length of each session needs to be the same.

    As I have read in another thread you, James Cook,(kinda big brothers watching you) are also like me mostly doing CC races. Maybe you are interested sharing some data ?
     
  5. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    I haven't done a CC for a while but will probably start another one soon seeing as the new GT3s are here. Always happy to be of help if I can.

    My observations are mainly from single races, but it's clear that certain AI drivers will win almost every race if (v.d. Linde a good example).
     
  6. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    So here some data regarding GT3 CC 107 % Hockenheim Short :

    First race 40 min / Pitstop

    Quali : 1.02.185 (Hackländer/Corvette C7)...myself 1.02.496 (made a mistake so pole was gone...)
    Race : Winners fastest Lap : 1.02.998 (Long / Porsche) 40 min race so they had not that much fuel left at the end. I did end up 5th

    Second race 20 min / Pitstop
    Race : Winners fastest Lap : 1.04.653 (J.den Boer / BMW M6) ...I did end up 4th after going one time off track :(
    As this time is much worse than in the first race it looks like we are right regarding full fuel load. As they had still much on board times could not be better.

    As for my setup which I think gives you some more thrill than just doing track by track with one race here the result two races left...
    r3ecc3.PNG

    I recommend van der Linde (Audi) Vanthoor (Audi) Long (Porsche) Mineo (Porsche) Hackländer (Vette) Stoll (Audi) and Glock (BMW) as they perform that good that they steal points of themselves a lot.
     
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  7. 2Lame2Aime

    2Lame2Aime Well-Known Member

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    It's also a bit strange how they rated some drivers. There's not even one Mclaren driver who's able to drive at the front, although there are names like Kevin Estre, S.v.G. or Alvaro Parente, but Maximilian Hackländer in the RWT C7 is fighting for wins every time. There are more big names, factory drivers that are always at the end of the field while amateurs/ gentlemen fight for the win.
     
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  8. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    For McLaren you need to put Bell No.3 in the grid. He can run in the top 5 sometimes. All Mercedes AMG seem to be crap as they almost end up at the end of the field. I think the balance in this case is not correct.
     
  9. .OG Isaac

    .OG Isaac Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    what is a CC? How do you choose who drives?
     
  10. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    CC = customized championship

    You can choose drivers/cars by deleting files or setting up a mod with JSGME which I did. I can choose every single driver of all new GT3 cars and some old ones.
     
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  11. .OG Isaac

    .OG Isaac Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Oh that's interesting! I'll look into this. Thanks!
     
  12. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    Heyho again on this topic.

    I think the devs should have a look on the performance of the new AMG in single player championship as they perform like crap always. Never they are able to end up top 10. I have done 40 !!! full races and they never ever are competitive. Its a shame. Same for the new McLaren.

    As I am just running the game with the new cars I can tell you its all about the Corvette, Audi and the new Porsche. All other cars do not have a chance. This is not well balanced.

    Also I think as the most of us do not have the talent of the best drivers in this universe the singel player championship is really important. Sure I know that Esports and Online gaming seems to be the future. But what about all of us not having the talent running for wins in online races ? We need to have a well balanced game for single players.

    I figured out some things during the past days as I was really running that many races and collected loads of data. There is a lot of room for improvements.
     
  13. Robert Holm

    Robert Holm KW Studios Developer

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    I've made AI drivers get a bit randomized "daily shape" to avoid same guy winning too often. Not sure it'll help in this case since it can be cars that are a bit unbalanced AI physics wise, but I've told Marko to give that a look.
     
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  14. Robert Holm

    Robert Holm KW Studios Developer

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    Also made AI run stints with at least 10 mins or 3 laps of fuel + randomly 0-3 extra laps of fuel, in non race sessions. They used to go out with full tanks in long sessions.
     
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  15. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    I think you did this quite short time ago. This would match my data. Thx for info and thx for all that great stuff and action I could see in all those races !
     
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  16. Robert Holm

    Robert Holm KW Studios Developer

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    It's not in public build yet, need to go through testers etc.
     
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  17. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    Ok, thx again, maybe its due to the last championship I did set up and running at the moment. Its a bit different to the data I collected before. I just did choose german drivers.
     
  18. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    Huge thanks @Robert Holm

    The Porsche drivers tend to dominate AI races and the Mercedes' drivers are quite weak. Glad to hear things are being balanced out a little more.
     
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  19. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    Heyho, yeah me again...I really hope I do not bore some of you posting my results. But here we are...
    R3EGO2a.PNG R3EGO2b.PNG
    After this CS I decided to go up to 108 % AI level and every race was going to be started with full fuel load due to info from dev. 50 min / 20 min race length mandatory pitstop
    I decided to run a "Germans only CS"...
    R3EGC1a.PNG R3EGC1b.PNG
    So far so good.

    I discovered some little issues. Two or three times I could recognize cars pitting in last lap (race length 40 min and 50 min). Why they did this ? Once they did not do the mandatory pitstop. This happened at Lausitz. See the result in German CS for Lausitz. Basseng and Henzler did end up close to the end of the field (2nd race). As they are really good drivers in this game and started from pos. 6 and 7 and had no crash they ended up 23nd and 26th. Both did no mandatory but entered pit in last lap.

    Also I have seen this on Hockenheim but can not say if those 2 cars did the mandatory one (#4 Henzler and #30 Schmitz both on Porsche).

    Next little issue. I was running a test race on Suzuka West Course. #36 Jesse Krohn BMW M6 received a drive through penalty and did not do so and got disqualified. Do not get me wrong I liked this kinda "human childish" behaviour...no I won`t stop bäääh I did nothing wrong grmpf !!! But as a matter of fact it is just about 0`s and 1`s so and as far as I learned there is no room for humanity ;)

    Another question. As I could figure out that almost on every track (tested yesterday 6 more non german tracks) the AI runs about 2 - 2.5 sec faster in quali I wonder why I can not do this. I think I can feel more grip in quali (is this possible ???) session. But I doubt that my car is running faster due to less fuel load. I do not get any faster on long straights. When I can easily catch up the AI with full fuel load I do not have any chance to do so with "no" fuel. Ok, as I said I am less than not talented and it could be due to this matter of fact.

    I wonder if CCs could be set up in a way like having diff AI levels on diff tracks AND sessions ? All within one and the same CS. I know that should be no prob in general but I do not know how easy this is to implement to UI (just some thoughts due to my programmer life 25 years ago).

    Once again I really hope I do not bore all those "freaks" out there who care much more about the deep core of the game concerning physics, FFB and so on.
     
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  20. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

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    Here we are again on a boring subject for online racers ;)

    Has this been done ? I did recognize some minutes ago that on Moskau FIM track a lot AI drivers pitted after about 10 min in quali with 12 min setup for.

    Just one more thing ;)... @devs ...have a look on Zandvoort GP track...this is much to weird. On AI level 107/108% in quali the AI does run a 1.36 (!!!) ...what the hell is wrong with those crazy drivers :confused:;)... I mean 1.36...on 107 % ...??? No driver in RL could keep up with this. I don`want to think about AI on 120% :D