Steering Wheel Torque - Real Life?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HomieFFM, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering how much torque drivers have to overcome to move the steering wheel, in real life, in most modern GT3 Cars for example?
    They are all using Powersteering, which should make it pretty easy compared to old F1 cars or Gokarts.

    But I'm still wondering how much Nm is it really? We also could replicate that with most steeringwheel bases.
    There is not really a source with any credible numbers (also powersteering is possibly adjustable), but maybe Sector 3 has some numbers to share? Or somebody in the Forum :)

    Cheers
     
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  2. Jota Ele

    Jota Ele Active Member

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    Watching onboards the visual sensation (taking as reference my own wheel in ACC) is than the average force must be between 8-12Nm but idk :D I'm curious too about this
     
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  3. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    Same, with the Fanatec DD1 one you can watch on a small display the current Nm and peak Nm last 10 seconds. With the default settings for that wheel I'm also getting around 8 - 12 Nm peak in most GT3 cars and I was thinking completely the same as you ''this does look like the hand + wheel movement in real life onboards'' :D

    I'll hope somebody can give us some numbers, that would be so awesome to know :)
     
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  4. BeefMcQueen

    BeefMcQueen Well-Known Member Beta tester

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  5. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    lol i just covered this topic and posted this video on another thread here.
     
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  6. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    Very good video, thank you :) He's saying what I have thought right at the beginning: ''Power steering can change anything in any amount'' , so I'm guessing what they are doing with GT3 cars or any other Power steering race car, they adjust or build a up the car with a certain level of power steering, where you don't get exhausted too quickly, but still have enough Nm to get more of a feeling what the car is doing.

    Because too much Powersteering would also kill some ''information'' for the driver, just like it does when you use 1% FFB strength in the settings :D

    But I still think there is a limited / realistic range of possible adjustments with the power steering. So I wonder if the Sector 3 devs have any numbers they are allowed to share with us :) At the moment 8-12 Nm steering peak by default does feel quite good and somehow believeable for most of the modern cars.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  7. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    Real life Ferrari Blancpain GT3 driver David Perel actually answered me and maybe we gonna get some informations in the next year! :D

    01.jpg
     
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  8. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    GT3s are all around 8Nm. There were drivers in the past who stated this. I just don't remember where... :( I think Jan Seyffarth said that about the AMG GT3. He uses a Simucube at home and matched the forces and then had around 8Nm on the Simucube.
     
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  9. iketani23

    iketani23 New Member

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    I think that the problem is when we put 8 or 12 Nm top in our steering wheel but we maintain 100 % of gain on ACC for example. Then here we get 8-12 Nm of peak but with much force if we compare it with a power-assisted steering wheel... If we decrease gain then now we aren't getting the real peak force... I don't know if I explained correctly what I mean...

    PS: So, is there any option to increase/decrease only the force of our steering wheel (I have SimuCube SC2 Pro) but maintaining the whole quantity of effects gain on ACC for example?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  10. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand, honestly :D
     
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  11. iketani23

    iketani23 New Member

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    Sorry :D I mean...: In ACC we can't modify "force strenght" and "level of FFB effects" separately but only "gain", so we have to rely Kunos has done a real FFB for example using 100% of ACC gain and... 25-30% of SimuCube driver overall strenght setting.
     
  12. iketani23

    iketani23 New Member

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    After some tests... If I put 28-32 % in overall strenght in SimuCube drive, it corresponds to 7-8 Nm of peak force (I have the 25 Nm SimuCube SC2 Pro steering wheel) and 100 % of gain in ACC (then I suppose that the steering wheel reaches the whole peak force set in SimuCube driver) I notice the force of the steering wheel very strong (like a non-assisted power steering). So, if I decrease the overall strenght in SimuCube driver to 14-16 % (3,5-4 Nm of peak force) I get the feeling of a power-assisted steering wheel but I guess not reaching the 7-8 Nm of desired peak force with the strongest FFB effects on kerbs and bumps...
     
  13. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    In this video, the physics developer of ACC recommends setting FFB gain to 30-40% for direct drive wheels:
     
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  14. iketani23

    iketani23 New Member

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    Uhm... It sounds interesting, I saw the video before but I didn't pay attention enough :D. If I've understood well, he says that 100 % was used for the development and clipping with old cars or something like that. So I think that definately I'll set the SimuCube driver to 8-12 Nm of peak force and then 30-40 % in ACC gain. Thank you Maskerader.
     
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  15. Coanda

    Coanda Member

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    Derived from iRacing T1 at Phillip Island..

    Steering Wheel Torque from motec at 360hz.


    PEAK Nm | AVERAGE Nm

    BMW Z4 GT3 - 21.8 | 11
    BMW M4 GT3 - 27.5 | 14.6
    Ferrari 488 GT3 - 39.4 | 22.9
    Lamborghini Evo GT3 - 36.5 | 17.6
    Mercedes-AMG GT3 - 48.3 | 22.7

    Porsche 991 RSR - 29.5 | 13.8
     
  16. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Those may as well be made up. Nowhere near real life. 49nm peak. Lol no. It's just a GT car and it has power steering, a granny could drive it.
     
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  17. Coanda

    Coanda Member

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    I'm not disagreeing with you.. I also questioned the iRacing devs about the accuracy of those figures particularly for the 488 and AMG. I wouldn't focus too much on the Peak force as that could be one spike skewing the result. That said the V8 Supercar has power steering and can reach 25 Nm | 15 Nm in this high load corner and this vehicle has said to be fairly spot on at 1:1 force from real driver feedback. The Formula 3 vehicle is also is registering pretty accurate results from the information I have so their numbers are somewhat accurate and believable for some vehicles and align with Neils video above..

    Here is one devs response:

    I don't have any solid numbers to go by but my personal estimation is that you can pull 12 Nm of torque in your daily driver on a fast freeway onramp. 20 Nm is probably the norm for a high speed corner in a GT3 car. That is based only on measurements I did on my car when parked and extrapolating the feel over to driving.\

    A lot of times we do get manufacturer data, but I'm not a car engineer so I don't get to see that data usually. Our engineers do a good job however and will always match the force to the data if we have it. And they have shared data with me in the past and when you compare it to similar data from the sim it is eerily accurate with individual bumps usually lining up.


    One thing to keep in mind is just because a car has power steering does not mean it is as light as a feather. Race cars run electro-hydraulic or EPAS setups allowing drivers to set their steer assist level.. For example the LMP2 Dallara P217 has 12 steer assist levels and can alter the average force from 34 Nm to 21 Nm by level 6 and further reduction if one was to run at level 12. And the same goes for the opposite. Group C vehicles that do not have power steering are known to be on the light side which iRacing is reporting these with an average of 13 Nm.

    I will continue to pester the iRacing devs to see if they can look further into the 488 and AMG.

    Take it all with a grain of salt and make up your own mind for what feels right for you..
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  18. iketani23

    iketani23 New Member

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    I think that I solved ¿my? problem. As you commented, I put 32 % of gain (corresponds to 8 Nm ok torque peak) on SimuCube SC2 Pro to simulate the maximum peak steering torque of GT3 cars, but then I also put 50 % of Static Force Reduction on TD to simulate better the power steering real force at normal turns.
     
  19. tennenbaum

    tennenbaum New Member

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    Motec and VRS Driving Analyzer obviously measure steering torque obviously without taking power steering help into equation. Still I'd like to know, if iRacing (and the other sims) calculate/simulate the steering torque (that reaches your steering wheel) with or without power steering (if the car has one)?
     
  20. sergeich

    sergeich Active Member

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    I use the very simple method. I take in sim the car closest to car I drove in real life. Then I set FFB level is right to my hands "remember" from real life. For example, in iRacing I use VW Jetta. And "Linear mode on". And what I see - iR Jetta's FFB is equal to my family car, GT4 cars are slightly harder, GT3 more harder... Indycar and 919 hybrid can broke my hands in speedy corners ) When racing R3E we can reset to default the FFB settings for all cars and we can base on VW Sirocco car to set equal to real world FFB strength. Ofcourse our wheelbase should have enough power to provide all other cars FFB in linear mode.

    I found this very simple and usefull method.