Getting a new wheel tomorrow, how bad is it going to be?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by mmaruda, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    So after after pondering some time about getting a new toy and not really being convinced, if it's worth it, my boss helped me make a decision by recklessly giving me bonus. Since I was already getting a new seat I decided to go overboard and order a T300RS with it. After a few days, I got a call from the shop and the guy told me that they currently don't have one in stock, but he generously offered me a swap for the T300RS GT for the same price (this one comes with them T3PA pedals). Obviously a good deal for me and I agreed on the spot, but...

    With my trusty DFGT I was already used to the crappy stock pedal resistance and I hear that these premium ones require a good deal more force and they have that rubber something brake mod, which works how exactly?

    Another issue is... they come with a clutch. Now I can use 3 pedals on a real car no sweat, but since I don't own one, I cannot really say I am confident about it, not to mention you don't drive on public roads at race pace. There is all that throttle blipping, which you need to do with your heel and then there is all that clutch use when you want to go sideways like and idiot, which sometimes tickles my fancy.

    So how hard is learning all this going to be?

    I am not all that serious about simracing, I have flight sims for all the nuances and long afternoons of practice - I mostly race or just drive/drift for fun and relaxation with the occasional competitive track day with some friend. Having an FFB wheel dancing in my hands always seemed like a good way to keep myself occupied with truly interactive entertainment and keep my mind off the work-related stressful stuff. Case in point, it's kind of a big deal, but I fear I might have bitten off more than I can chew. I am worried that this will require a lot of practice to adjust to, especially that I like them classic vehicles, and I will end up frustrated not being able to drive like I used to. I also get discouraged easily (sadfrog.psd). My previous occasional experience with a G27 is what is causing these doubts.

    Any tips would be welcome.

    PS I know I can just use 2 pedals, but what's the point of an upgrade then?
     
  2. rbn

    rbn Well-Known Member

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    Easy. Go with the T3PA pedals.

    The stock pedals are shit, the T3PA pedals are actually pretty good considering its price, it has stiffer springs and brake mod included. If you don't use the clutch its still a better choice.

    The brake mod is a rubber stopper so you can adjust and set braking treshold. Example 90% braking when you hit the stopper.
    Or 95% if you want more stopping power, its a lot harder to lock the brakes once setup correctly.
    But you can remove it if you dont like it.
     
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  3. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Well-Known Member

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    You will wish you had taken the step earlier. You really want pedal resistance like IRL. It will make you faster (after maybe a short break-in / getting used to it period).
     
  4. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone elaborate (like to a layman in simracing gear), how it's all going to make me faster? So far the most difficulty I had was not really with pedals, braking and such, but not being able to "catch" the car if I overdrive it. The sole reason I went for a higher end wheel, was that I felt that the FFB on the old Logi was sort of lacking, too slow, not telling me in time that I may have overdone it in my urge for speed, too late to correct it. Will a harder brake pedal allow me to brake later and more efficiently or something?
     
  5. Sascha Reynders

    Sascha Reynders Well-Known Member

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    With it's smoother and overall better/stronger FFB and higher accuracy (16-bit resolution), the T300 will do a much better job at communicating loss of front and rear grip than any wheel Logitech ever put on the market. You'll start feeling much more subtle changes in FFB, giving you more time to react and correct driving errors. I could try explaining it further in words, but you'll find out soon enough what I'm talking about once you hook it up to your rig and head out on track.
    Is it gonna make you faster ? It'll take some practice and getting used to, but it should make you (at least a bit) faster in the end, yes. Are you gonna have more fun ? Hell yeah ! :D

    It will mostly allow you to brake more consistently, which -again, after some practice and getting used to- should allow you to brake a little later and deeper, and therefor more efficiently. And go yet a little bit faster again :)

    And after that, when you start driving with clutch and H-shifter, heel 'n' toe'ing and all, you'll find yourself going a helluva lot slower again. And the fun starts all over again ;)

    Enjoy your new seat and wheel when they arrive !
     
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  6. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Well-Known Member

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    This article should shed some light:

    http://www.ricmotech.info/?p=106

    From my own experience (using Heusinkveld Pro pedals) I can say that the brake (loadcell) is now set at plusminus 40 kg resistance.
    That feels awesome and makes it easier to brake consistently than with everything I had before: G27, T500RS with MrBasher brake mod), Fanatec CSL Elite (loadcell), Fanatec V3 (loadcell + extra damper).
    Braking has a lot to do with muscle memory and the pedals with less resistance are very difficult for that, at least they are for me.
    Braking without ABS with the lighter pedals was a nightmare, now I rarely use ABS, correct trailbraking is a lot easier.

    For catching the rear when it steps out, you need good (and correct set) FFB. If you nail that, your wheel will tell you in time that action is needed... :D
     
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    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  7. Patrick.B

    Patrick.B Well-Known Member

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    i also own a T300. and i like it much more than my Fanatec V2 Base (Hasters in 3... 2... 1...:confused:) but i would recommend to buy better Pedals .. at least Fanatec CSP V1 because of the Loadcell Brake. Btw i upgraded my V1 Pedals to the Fanatec V3 Pedals. hope i will get them today :D
     
  8. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    If you overdrive the car, as you say, its your behaviour, and wheel and pedals will do nothign for you. Self-restraint is on order then. ;)

    A stiffer brake pedal will help ypu to not "over-brake" the car, preventing you from giving too much brakes, also helpiing you to dose smoother. And this will make you a bit faster, absolutely. You have to fight less with regaining control where before you lost it due to too harsh braking.

    I have just switched from a G27 to Fanatec stuff, the good one, and it is a very huge difference for sure. From all the good chnages this step has brought, the better brake pedal and its load cell (CSPv3) is the most important one. I would always recommend people with "low" hardware setups that if the consider upgrading they should prioritize pedals over wheel.
     
  9. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    It seems you're talking about the T3PA-PRO, the T3PA has only 2 pedals.

    I have this pedals with a TS-PC Racer since few months, first wheel ever, before I used a gamepad for long years. :)
    You have the rubber and a second harder spring, and the brake pedal already have a softer spring, so you have 3 official choices:
    - Let the softer spring alone,
    - Add the rubber,
    - Add the harder spring.

    The harder spring (or rubber) is used on the deeper range of the braking pedal, it adds to the softer spring and doesn't replace it. So a soft braking only pushes on the 1st spring, and a hard braking pushes on both.

    In my own experience I added the harder spring so I have to use more force when hard braking, it feels natural to me and it's easier to avoid blocking the wheels. But after some weeks I found I wasn't happy with the softer spring cause it's not soft enough and I had an issue while driving: sometimes I thought I was doing a tiny braking but wasn't pushing the pedal, generally it happened at end of trail braking.

    So some time ago I opened the T3PA-PRO and inverted the first spring between clutch and brakes (clutch spring is softer, like throttle, and I don't use clutch). Now my brake pedal is softer on beginning and still hard on the end, it feels closer to my real car. :) I also changed the brake sensitivity in R3E so most cars starts to brake hard when I touch the harder spring.

    It's all about personal feeling and training with your setup. Every time you change something you loose skill for a short period before to relearn it on the new setup.

    Recently I rebuilt my FFB from scratch and also changed my FOV a lot (from x1 to x0.6, changed progressively on several days), I again had to relearn but now I'm faster, more consistent and have better control when saving a car.
    Also when I switched from a gamepad to a wheel I was slower with a wheel and not able to save a car, I wasn't understanding the FFB, that was strange to me. Of course, after a learning the wheel is way better. :)

    So don't be afraid to learn again, it's all good to improve your skills. Tweak pedals sensitivity, tweak FFB, tweak pedals springs, make all to your preferences and you'll be comfortable soon or later. ;)
     
  10. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    Ok so I got the wheel and the seat. Both are nice. The wheel being a little nicer. ;)

    Now on to the good stuff. The FFB... How the hell did I managed to even drive with that DFGT junk? The first difference is the smoothness - the Logi had this grainy feel to it sometimes, I actually liked it, because it was sort of giving the impression of lateral tire friction and stuff. But I guess now ever grit or bump I feel comes from the FFB rather than the cogs. The big game changer is the way the T300 feels when driving on the straights - there is no deadzone! I can feel the car and once those rear wheel start loosing traction the wheel react instantaneously and reorients itself on the spot. I hardly have to do any work. Now when I slide it's "eeh, no biggy". I was moaning at the FFB in Assetto, being off, but I guess the DFGT just ain't cut for it. I didn't have to fiddle with the settings much either.

    The big issue is, just as I suspected, the pedals... Man, is it a different pair of shoes. Up-shifts with the clutch are not an issue. But I get all sorts of confused on the down-shifts. I decided to go full on started off with trying heel and toe blipping right away. I sometimes manage to do it properly, but this will require some practice. Might be spending more time with more modern cars now. The interesting thing is the resistance. Compared to the G27 pedals I once tried, these are much softer, but still stronger than the crappy DFGT ones. The rubber brake mod thingy is interesting. It's almost like a brake limiter. I just tap the brake a little and I am already at the rubber point and if I want to brake harder, I really have to put some force into it, but then again, I don't need to. Braking now is like I had ABS in every car, almost a cheat. Not sure how brakes on race cars work, but they definitely don't work that way on road cars.

    All in all, I am please with the setup. As I thought, it's going to take time learning the clutch, but after an hour of practice and fooling around, driving like complete noob, I can't say that I felt frustrated even once. I failed on nearly every down-shift, but I was having fun, the wheel is great.

    Thanks for your time everyone. See you on the track someday (like when I learn to drive again).
     
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  11. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    Ok guys, just a quick update, frustration zone achieved! I can't do well with these heel and toe things. Either I mess up the sequence completely (welcome to spin city), or I'm way to slow (how the hell do you drop gear form 5 to 2 in 3 seconds!?), or my favourite... I up-shift instead of down-shift (feel the love for them paddles, where's my damn gear knob?).

    Anyway, I get it, it's a process and an exercise in learning, I know I can do it (after all I learned them damn 10-hit combos in Tekken), but I need some tips, as in what exercise works best to build on? One thing I found weird is I sometimes do everything rather ok, but I don't seem to blip enough. Any tips on what car track combo would be suitable for practice, should I wear shoes?
     
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  12. rbn

    rbn Well-Known Member

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    The T3PA has 3 pedals otherwise it was called T2PA :)

    Only the stock pedalset has 2 pedals.
     
  13. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Well-Known Member

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    @mmaruda I'd start with Norisring and DTM 92. You're having a straight approach to the corners, cars are easy to control. Do not drive too fast, so you have enough time to realise what you're doing and you have to downshift just once or twice before the corners. Try to keep pressure on brakepedal consistent.
    Getting more confident, run faster.
    Try with different rev levels, to learn to apply the right dose of throttle.
    Later on use different tracks not too difficult ones as Oschersleben or Hockenheim.
    Keep on exercising.;)
    With my csv v3 I'm using shoes.
     
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  14. rbn

    rbn Well-Known Member

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    I am using the T300 for around 2 years now, and I still can't do heel-toe perfectly. So don't feel frustrated after a day.
    The formula junior is a nice beginner car imho.

    Just drive slowly and get good downshifts instead of trying to do fast laptimes and screw up half the downshifts.
    It needs a lot of practice and its not intuative at all so it needs time to became second nature.
     
  15. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Well-Known Member

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    You did not expect to master heel/toe right away did you ?
    It will take you months and months, if not longer, to do well...let alone feeling intuitive.
    But it is fun and it is really needed in some cars.

    I'd wear shoes... ;)
     
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  16. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    No I didn't, I just had the hope it was going to be sort of ineligible to me, but I still feel like a kid trying on their first pair of pants. Sucks on the months and months thing though - this was what I was afraid of. What struck me, was that I watched some YT vids on how to do it in a real car, and the madmen really recommend your try to learn this while driving you own vehicle... For the love of everything, don't do it! You'll die! LOL

    Anyway, I am torn between calling it a day and trying later when I am rested, and this weird urge of giving it another go (like 2 hours probably, I'm stubborn that way). Also, yeah, shoes help, but it's kind of weird to wear anything but slipper where I come from. :D
     
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  17. Karting06

    Karting06 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    That's funny, because I exactly did that last year!
    I 'can' doing heel & toe. But it's painful after a while with socks... And normal shoes, it's more braking and accelerating at the same time.
    So, I need to invest in some better shoes :)
     
  18. RomKnight

    RomKnight Active Member

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    If there's one thing I like in simracing is driving fully manual a grp5 car (Ford Capri anyone? :D ) or a V8SC (but it's sequential and only clutch needed for downshifts though).

    But anyway, doing that, just getting to the end of an 1h race is quite an achievement and extremely rewarding. Especially in the Grp5 car because turbo lag :)

    Anyway, it does take time, you have to also adjust on braking earlier as you can't go down the gears as fast, have to worry about engine and gearbox damage too... but... can't get much more fun than that :)

    After that try it in the rain :D :D

    If the pedals have spacers try to adjust them so the brake is a little closer to you so when you are braking you just need to nudge the gas. Remember that the cars don't need to have the throttle fully pressed to rev to the red line.

    But yes, practice makes perfect.

    Just as a motivation because I think it's a skill worth having even if only for personal satisfaction:


    HAVE PHUN :D
     
  19. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    Yes you're right. Anyway OP is talking about the Pro version with rubber and additional spring. :)

    Note that you can also adjust a bit the gap between pedals on the Pro version, if it can helps.
     
  20. rbn

    rbn Well-Known Member

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    I dont want to be nitpicky but:
    He is talking about the T300 RS GT set, which has the non-pro T3PA pedals.....
    Only the T500 set has the pro pedals.
    http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_US/products/t300-rs-gt-edition

    ;)