Released 11th July 2018 - RaceRoom has been updated

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by J-F Chardon, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Olijke Poffer

    Olijke Poffer Active Member

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    Which car is the FRJ?

    Edit: nevermind. Formula Raceroom Junior.
     
  2. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    Formula Raceroom Junior

    dis one: hero-racing-35-5047-image-big.png
     
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  3. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    You don't need the AI too, just the car and anything close to a track. :)
     
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  4. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson KW Studios Developer

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    Nathan, I'm really happy that we've sparked discussion like this! From what I know about a Formula Dodge, in RaceRoom terms they sit somewhere between the RaceRoom Junior and the F4. I've based the physics on a well known Formula car you can see me racing in my avatar. They've no wings and were notoriously a bit skittish. Amazingly I found data detailing all aspects of such a car; wind tunnel data, setups, all important brake measurements, dyno charts, the lot. They're really soft so weight transfer is a big deal - in fact I think they were made that way to teach drivers moving from karts to cars the importance of it all.

    The idea was to create something which was a rewarding challenge to drive. Sounds like that happened!


    The intention was to create a manual transmission which, just like a real racing transmission, takes some finesse to use properly and wont take just being slammed from gear to gear with no care. All of this was developed using a Fanatec shifter. I'm sure you remember from your FDodge days that the boxes take a little getting used to. Not entirely sure what you mean about the inertia changing with gear engagement though.

    I'm not sure about the RPM lights; that's not my gig, but I'm happy to look at it and report any issues to the guys who deal with that stuff.
     
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  5. Vince Wheel

    Vince Wheel Member

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    Hi,
    I have the complete G27 (H pattern shifter and 3 pedals set)
    I drive Historic cars a lot since I started R3E (group 5 corvette is one of my favs)
    when a car is manual, I do it totally manual in the option settings (in RL, I never had automatic car anyway)
    I must say it was a joy: all commands -h patter/clutch/brake/throttle were working great
    in a realistic way in my opinion.
    On many points, this update is very good, and notely the Saleen
    GTR1 is now a very vivid monster!

    But I feel very confused by the clutch-code which brings more problems than
    it is resolving in my opinion.

    If I understand properly, you made this code in a realistic purpose
    for people who are not clutch-equiped and prevent them from
    upshift like they do on modern cars (without releasing throttle)

    I'm experiencing now some bad side effects: Especially a weird smoothness
    when upshifting, downshifting's revs are more vague, the revs/engine brake sentation
    is ghosty, and I must relate much more earlier on the brakes to slow down
    at the end of a straigh. since the clutch-code, the car's dynamic seems like lifted.
    (I tried my best with the technical words in english, hope that it stays understandable)
     
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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  6. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson KW Studios Developer

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    The main problem I tried to solve was that it was fastest to drive a stick-shift with manual clutch without lifting off the throttle between gears; there was no drawback from doing so.
     
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  7. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it this change that made heel and toe useless now?
    I don't use H-Pattern myself but in the french community I play, most people are complaining that heel and toe is now useless, and that the clutch pedal mainly acts by itself whatever they do.
    They feel the new behavior is aiming an arcade gameplay, removing what made the realism and their fun in driving old cars with H-Pattern.
     
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  8. ndwthx1138

    ndwthx1138 Well-Known Member

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    Hi there,

    I really appreciate your response. I wish forums/internet was more like this in general. I can't tell you how many times I don't reply/respond to something because I don't want opinion/fact/misunderstanding to turn into something that isn't worth while. So seriously - thanks

    I WAS using my old setup. You were correct!

    So I loaded it up this morning to try again. It should be mentioned in real life I did start with the skip barber school here in california post doing shifter kart series. The skip barber formula dodges (which I think might not have had a dodge engine in it the year I finished?) had no aero/wings of any kind. So it looked very similar.. and likely had worse pad material than current day. I do recall needing to heat your brakes up, and in fact on laguna seca turn 1 (technically turn 2) your brakes could cool down on you as was Sears Point a bit scary on the back straight (Sonoma). Their racing series were different cars, and they did behave very differently, but was a great starting place.

    Regardless, I loaded it up this morning gave it another try. It took me more than a half dozen laps to get on top of the leader board (it should be mentioned by the way, that the current Furst place holder (dawning a french flag) absolutely violates the track 3-5 times by dropping all 4 wheels well outside, thus giving him a lot of speed on the straight and carring more speed at least twice - this took me a moment to realize as I couldn't understand how I was losing so much to him on the front straight). At any rate here are my thoughts

    - Braking balance is odd, the FFB will literally pull very hard under non-lock ups. I run crew chief which will tell you if a particular wheel is locking up versus just front or rear. I often have only my front right lock up while going straight. Balance from front to rear seems reasonable to me. This left right shutter where only one will lock up in a straight line is rough though. Normally I would drive back in and say 'tire pressure is wrong on one wheel - or - one wheel has too much camber versus the other'. I reduced FFB and this helps me try and keep the car straight before I turn in. Trail braking is insanely hard and simply too dangerous. So I would agree 1 second is too much on turn one to be gained. However I do think .5 is easy if I didn't have to get 100% of my braking done before turn in. You can't use the brakes for balance or more importantly upsetting the balance. I have the balance at 57 in the front and pressure and 88 now. When I had it closer to what one would think in a light weight well balanced car (52F) it was a disaster for me.

    - Snap over-steer. Man it's really tough. All the things I would do to cure over-steer tend to make it worse not better in this car. More evenly balanced brakes - very poor results for me - soften rear bump or rebound - creates more over steer (especially on sweepers), reducing rear sway bars - has opposite affect of what I would expect. So on all these things I have gone the other way to create a more neutral car. It's confusing.

    - Transmission, I just can't understand what it's doing. With the clutch fully engaged I will hear grinding noise now on down shifts (while I am blipping). I now don't even try to get a perfect shift, I just simply slip it as fast as possible and let it drop, knowing this I change my style into a apex (engine speed reduces below what I would expect). It's also worth noting you can do the silliness found in Iracing where you drop the clutch mid turn to over-rotate into the apex. This can be done in real life.. for maybe 2 laps, then you have to coast into the pits with no clutch. Needing to get heel toe working on this car feels essential as braking hard is a gamble and of course momentum is what wins with light weight, low power. I just can't get this right. It's almost like the gear itself does actually engage when it says it does on your motec. Can I ask are you using auto clutch or do you have a H-shifter?

    It's a fun car but my current lap time is not good and you can see it's riddled with errors. Someone will come along and hit a low 1:52 in no time. My biggest problem is this is not a car I could race with others.

    Hope to run into you online!

    NathanW
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  9. ndwthx1138

    ndwthx1138 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for replying as well Alex. I just did a long reply, addressing a few of my opinions on the matter. I really do both respect your opinions on the matter and more importantly respect your efforts in bringing your experience to the game - many thanks!

    Can I ask what steering wheel base are you running? I ask because one of the things I discovered this morning was the left right pull was coming from force feedback. Reducing the FFB helped me gain some control under heavy braking. I also noted to not even try to do a first hot lap.

    The transmission thing is a mystery to me. I heel toe in day to day driving in my wifes little abarth and in my days with porsche (996 gt3) I was reasonably good at this. With this new change I am having the toughest time and am simply adapting to it always being a bad shift (early throttle). But the blipping and heel toe and frustrating and I have no idea what it's doing while the clutch is fully engaged and it makes a grinding noise. Worse trying to get that rev match to happen when that grind happens means you loop the car more often than not. I am running a fanatec 1.5 shifter and my bite point on my HPP pedals is set at 3 (in game). Love to get your thoughts.

    NathanW
     
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  10. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    As there's no dedicated Motegi thread I'd just like to drop my thanks in here. Another nice track recreated to the usual exceptional standards.

    Now we have an array of Asian circuits I feel an Asian GT3 championship coming on!
     
  11. Xon3

    Xon3 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  12. GregoryLeo

    GregoryLeo Well-Known Member

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    I have been absolutely loving the new physics on the Ford GT1!!! Just wanted to say thanks again. Been a bit of a long wait. But more than well worth it.
    Thanks again S3E. :cool::p;)
    Edit:
    P.S. I really like/prefer the AI as well. Actually make real mistakes that require me to be paying full attention if I don’t want to get caught up in the mayhem. Loving that as well. :rolleyes::)
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  13. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    In most cases R3E allows to have 2 wheels outside and 2 wheels on the kerb. In the past on Portimao it was even allowed to go 2 wheels on the green parts and 2 wheels well outside.
    The game defines the rules/limits so there's no violation, if a cut is detected your time is cancelled.
    I agree that a low 1.52.x is possible and maybe even 1.51.x with crazy driving. :)
     
  14. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson KW Studios Developer

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    Thank you for your kind words! I really strive to make R3E as good as it can be, and the challenge of conveying what I feel when I drive a real car on circuit to the game is something I enjoy so much.

    My steering base at the moment is nothing at all special; a measly Logitech G920. I also use a Fanatec 1.5 shifter. Here are my controller & FFB settings if you'd like to compare:


    Code:
    FFB Device Name="none"
    FFB Device Name Alternative="none"
    FFB Rumble Pad="0" // Type of FFB controller:  0=wheel, joystick etc with force feedback, 1 = pad with rumble motor
    FFB Gain="1.0" // Strength of Force Feedback effects.  Range 0.0 to 1.0.
    FFB Min Force="0.06" // Minumum force, from 0.0 to 1.0
    FFB Min Force Linear Percentage="0.01" // Minumum force linear percentage
    FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
    FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    FFB stationary friction="0.9" // Amount of friction applied to the steering wheel when vehicle is stationary
    FFB stationary friction speed="2.7780001" // Below this speed the stationary friction starts to be applied, in m/s
    FFB steer vibe freq mult="1.0" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration.
    FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.0" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point).
    FFB steer vibe slope="0.0" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude).
    FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
    FFB steer force average weight="1.0" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency.
    FFB steer force exponent="0.5" // Steering force output "sensitivity".  Range 0.0 to infinity.  0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity.
    FFB steer force input max="-11500.0" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction).
    FFB steer force output max="1.0" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
    FFB steer force grip weight="0.9" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9.  How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
    FFB steer force front grip exponent="1.0" // Range 0.0 to infinity, recommended: around 1.0.  Exponent applied to grip weight.
    FFB steer force rear grip exponent="1.0" // Range 0.0 to infinity, recommended: around 1.0.  Exponent applied to rear grip loss weight.
    FFB steer damper coefficient="0.0" // Coefficient to use for steering damper.  Range: -1.0 to 1.0
    FFB steer damper saturation="1.0" // Saturation value to use for steering damper.  Range: 0 - 1.0
    FFB steer force balance mode="0" // Mode for how to add the steering forces together (lateral, load and diff).  Acceptable values: 0 = lat + load + diff, 1 = sqrt(lat^2 + load^2 + diff^2), 2 = sqrt(lat^2 + load^2) + diff, 3 = sqrt(lat^2 + (load + diff)^2), 4 = sqrt((lat + load)^2 + diff^2)
    FFB steer load multiplier="1.0" // Multiplier for vertical load on front tires.  Range: 0 - infinity
    FFB steer lateral multiplier="1.0" // Multiplier for lateral forces.  Range: 0 - infinity
    FFB steer rack factor="0.0" // How much of the lateral forces comes from steering rack.  Range: 0 - 1.0
    FFB steer load change exponent="1.0" // Exponent for the change in load on front tires.  Range: 0 - infinity
    FFB steer load change breakpoint="1.0" // Breakpoint (value that will not be changed) for the exponent on the change in load on front tires.  Range: 0 - infinity
    FFB steer spring coefficient="0.0" // Coefficient for steering spring. Range: 0.0 - 1.0
    FFB throttle vibe freq mult="1.0" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency.  Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50
    FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.15" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point).
    FFB throttle vibe slope="0.0" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude).
    FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
    FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.9" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is.  Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
    FFB rumble strip freq mult="2.0" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev.
    FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
    FFB rumble strip pull factor="0.2" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
    FFB jolt magnitude="2.0" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are.  Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
    FFB shift jolt magnitude="0.3" // How strong jolts you get from shifting.  Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
    FFB shift effect duration="0.05" // Duration of shift effect in seconds
    FFB slip effect="0.0" // Slip effect, from 0.0 to 1.0
    ffb slip freq multiplier="1.0" // Slip effect frequency. 1.0f = 1 cycle per wheel rev
    ffb slip wave type="0" // Slip effect wave type
    FFB pedal throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.0" // Throttle pedal vibration at 0rpm (reference point)
    FFB pedal throttle vibe slope="0.0"
    FFB pedal throttle slip vibe="1.0" // Throttle pedal vibration on tire slip
    FFB pedal brake slip vibe="1.0" // Brake pedal vibration on front tire slip
    FFB pedal brake vibe slope="5.0" // Slope for brake pedal vibration based on speed and braking %
    I'm not entirely sure about the downshifting either, could you elaborate a little more on the problems you're having?
     
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  15. Scraper

    Scraper Well-Known Member

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    So that's why the Formula Raceroom Junior feels so good with my DFGT! :D
     
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  16. FormelLMS

    FormelLMS Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I want to step in.

    Haven't had time to make some drives till yesterday evening.

    Tried Motegi and the Saleen and the Ford GT.

    I think, I never want to drive another car anymore.
    Tried only one hour testing with 15 AI cars on 107 percent and makes it to the third place in the last ten minutes.
    This, because it's so much fun to drive.

    Now I will look for a good setup to improve my knowledge.
    Thanks S3, thanks @Alex Hodgkinson for this. Best 7 Euros spent for that.
     
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  17. Olijke Poffer

    Olijke Poffer Active Member

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    I find the Formula Junior a bit slow. Nice to drive but I like higer speed cars more.
     
  18. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    FRJ should be used on smaller and shorter tracks (or club versions of the tracks), like Stowe or some swedish tracks.
     
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  19. Scraper

    Scraper Well-Known Member

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    Try the Formula Junior at Zandvoort... :hearteyes:
     
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  20. Olijke Poffer

    Olijke Poffer Active Member

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    Yes that will be better indeed. Shorter tracks with a lot of bends and corners.
    Yeah love the Zandvoort track. Drove it once in real life with my old Opel Cadet. Lol..
     
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