RR, U4E, and VR

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skybird, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    I play racing titles exclusively VR, and 99% of the time as single player.

    After one week with Assetto Corsa Competizione 1.0 and months in Early Access before that, all that seen as a VR player, I am slightly worried now over Sector3's plans to implement the same graphics engine into Raceroom that carries the graphics of Competizione. Unreal 4 Engine that is.

    The VR in ACC may be better than its curren reputation, but when I compare it, after much tweaking and experimenting, to Raceroom's Steam VR and AC1's later added VR, it is inferior. The performance is more demanding and the framerate less prominent, the load on CPU and GPU is much higher and pushed my temp values into critical ranges, and the result, as seen with my eyes when wearing the VR headset, is not as "crispy" (IknowIknow, VR and crispiness...) and convincing in contrast and sharpness, as Raceroom and AC1 in VR. Especially at longer distances the U4E VR graphcis suffer, compared to the other two games. Add to this strange ghosting effects in replays and external cameras, and a general vulnerability for dropping frames. They have reduced ghosting - deleting it they so far were not able.

    I am no coder and no software technician, I read however many people who claimed that U4E is by far no ideal solution for VR, and for racing game sin general. Only some of them give techncial background reasons for their assessment, but they correspond with my own experiences that U4E, as it is present in Competizione, is inferior to Raceroom's and AC1's VR engines.

    That has me worrying now. If at some day in the future Raceroom gets relaunched in U4E, then the old engine probabaly, most likely, will not be offered parallel anymore, so it is a swim-or-drown situation for everybody. Lets assume for a moment that Kunos is not completely incompetent in handling U4RE, and thus sector3 likely will run into the same problems and challenges with U4E as Kunos apparently did. I fear for the degrading performance and visual end result in VR that this step then could mean for Raceroom in VR. While Competizione offers fantasic graphcis effects with weather and rain, the VR performance nevertehless is anything but optimal, and I hate the idea to see such a massive effect impacting on Raceroom's VR playability as well - because VR in Raceroom, as it is now, runs stable, reliable and supermsooth for me, and by VR standards is very clear and crispy. The >looks< can become others with U4E, but VR >performance< hardly can get better. Means: as a VR player, there is little gains possible, but a fearsome lot is at risk.

    From a VR point of view, I have become very hesitent to welcome the change of Raceroom to U4E in the future. And my system is not really a weak one. But ACC and U4E tries to kill it. In parts that might be to the immense physics calculations and realtime dynamic weather change. But I see the immense fluctuation of frames in VR, depending on the visible situation around me, number of AI cars and such. A lot of money got invested into Raceroom by me, I hate the idea of the sim becoming usable only at limited options and car numbers for me while now it is running almost optimal. In other words: I see only risks currently, and no chances.
     
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  2. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Fast typing and hence long text posting boi back at it :D
    Dont play in vr but playing on my good old laptop i have similar fears regarding not being able to play r3e any longer because of performance so i just keep hoping for the switch (if its even officially happening) to take forever ;)
     
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  3. Turtle Power

    Turtle Power Well-Known Member

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    Where did you read about Raceroom plans to implement Unreal 4 engine?
     
  4. Trickle

    Trickle Member

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    2017 Statement when SimBin Studio reopening was announced alongside the work on GTR3 and that they share synergy effects with RaceRoom in terms of assets and content, it was also stated that the plans were to transfer R3E after the release of GTR3 to the UE4 engine aswell.

    http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/raceroom-to-go-unreal-4-in-future.131947/

    But SimBin postbones gameplay and more information for quite a while now (last lifesign was in January I guess), no one knows what remains of this idea.

    Georg said in the last RRVLN stream i think, that they do like day/night change in R3E but since it would not work with the current engine, it will take time.
    So I think S3 is still trying to figure out how and if it can be achieved and whether it is UE4 engine or not - especially regarding Reiza somehow obtaining the Madness engine for Automobilista 2.

    We will see. I would love to hear news on the technical site aswell, but for the moment I guess we can only be patient.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  5. m.bohlken

    m.bohlken Well-Known Member

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    They Posted a picture of a Fanatec DD-Wheel (well at least the package of it) and renew the announcement that more info will come pretty soon... unfortunately we hear that with every post...
    Even if it might not be the game I'm interessted in, I'm still very curious how it is done on the technical side...

    looking on the history of Sector3, I guess the chances to see the Madness engine (coming from Ian Bells studio) in R3E would be below programming a complete new own engine...
     
  6. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    I think developing an individual home engine for Raceroom should be a seriously considered option. You get total control over the results you want to achieve that way. And you do not depend on somebody else, makers of U4E for example, to get their homework done. Sector3 might be in a good situation for doing so: they have a rocksolid fundament with Raceroom as it is, that still does well, and while there is a need that becomes more and more evident to update in regards to dynamic time of day and weather, one can afford to invest the time it may need to get where one wants to go with the new engine - I do not see the desperate time pressure to improve the looks of Raceroom right now, better today than tomorrow.

    Kunos once said they regret that they can not work with their own engine anymore. It was easier with their inhouse engine to get things done as they wanted them, because the engine was tailored from A to Z for just this task, without compromise. Their mistake was that they did not include more than one light source, else they probably would have stayed with it, they once indicated.

    Judging by the patient steadiness of how Sector3 runs the ship, I think they can trust in their ability to accept the challenge. Speaking completely for myself, this would be my preferred scenario for Raceroom's future. To revolutionise Raceroom, is no imminent need. The time it needs to develpope it slowly but reliably, is there.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  7. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    Funny, I 've just read another post about the AA-UE4-related issues in ACC (VR and Screen) and thought by myself "maybe it's a good thing that S3 hasn't made and/or posted any final decision about their "next generation" engine yet"....all I want is a more defined real-life/real-time Enviroment in terms of daytime and weather conditions, while graphically all can stay the same with just a pinch of salt added (=dynamics and depth) ....( 48 working MP slots would be also something worth to consider btw. ;) )
     
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  8. Trickle

    Trickle Member

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    And that is the thing.
    Many people think "engine" only relates to graphics, but that is not true. To me, R3E looks good, but severly lacks lighting and shader in my opinion - which rather sooner than later comes into play regarding the competitors in SimRacing

    Things like physics, stability, performance, and net code can, depending on the engine, also come into play.

    For R3E on a short- to mid-term I would like to see DX11 support for better performance and stability, as well as an improved/revised or even completely new net code, making multiplayer actually more enjoyable without player drops, crashes or lagging.

    And yes, raising the player count would be really nice - though I would love to see it at at least 56 cars, looking at the Nordschleife and VLN-like multi-class races being one of the most driven races in R3E.
    But then tracks would also need to be adjusted, as to my knowledge some even are barely capable of providing a starting grid for 30 (?) cars. I don't know if that is taken over from the real world racetrack, which would be fine, or if that are (maybe remaining) settings due to simulation needs, which would need to be adjusted - and take time again.
    So in any case it seems it is nothing that can be achieved over night, sadly.

    But yeah, maybe we can read some technical improvement (or a kind of a road to new/adapted/update engine) on the to-do list in one of the next developer notes. Would be cool along the content and the physics improvements Sector3 already teased. :)
     
  9. Turtle Power

    Turtle Power Well-Known Member

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    I personally think R3E is super fine with the current engine. I dont care about fancy graphics if it feels crap to drive or poor performance.
     
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  10. FeltHλt

    FeltHλt Moderator Beta tester

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    a lot of folks are with you on this (me partially) but they need to grow and evolve to be competitive on the market and stay in the business

    Atleast we all agree that ue4 is shit :p
     
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  11. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    Do we?

    I only see a disadvantage for VR, and weaker hardware. But the looks of it can be impressive in 2D monitor graphics (thats why Kunos have choosen it and Sector3 is considering it). My worries are about VR, and the immense hardware hunger.
     
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  12. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Well-Known Member

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    We do, at least I do. Just didn't want to start the triple discussion again with ACC, therefore only 24 hours since EA began.
     
  13. dentalfloss

    dentalfloss Member

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    Unreal blows. Terrible AA and input lag.

    If DX11 would improve performance, then I'm for that. I'm not concerned with fancy graphics.
     
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  14. Dale Junior

    Dale Junior Well-Known Member

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    For a racing sim which wants to exist more than some years on the game market, it's the complete wrong way to use a temporary game engine like the UE4 or the competitor Madness engine. Because all these engines have an expiry date and it's totally impossible for a small team like Sector 3 to convert their full game into a new engine every couple of years. That's why I still prefer the idea of an "individual home engine for Raceroom" with endless potential of improvement opportunities like you can find in iRacing (powered by the old NASCAR Racing 2003 engine) since 2008. I am convinced that's the only right decision for R3E.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  15. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    Thats a very good argument that I have never thought about before.

    Nascar 2003. My hands still start sweating when I just think of that title. More stress I have never had in any racing game. :D
     
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  16. MattYKee

    MattYKee Active Member

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    Unreal engine does have the benefit of continued support for developers. I would assume that would extend to things like triple screen support, VR blurring and input lag issues. (as long as they're properly diagnosed.)

    My own experience(15+ years) with unreal engine as a artist is that theres allot of things you can configure to eek out more performance and clean up the picture. But it takes time and experience to sort through all the variables and what works and doesn't work.
     
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  17. GooseCreature

    GooseCreature Well-Known Member

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    There are more than a few license free 3d engines available, personally I'd grab the best of them and set a few coders on it to adapt it to RR, then charge other developers to use the Frankenstein engine for their Sims and then of course S3 can employ me as their director of ethics.
    Love RR as it is but the consumer dictates what is and isn't necessary in it's future development, all product require a constant stream of new users to go with a decent base community, just to survive in such a niche environment. S3 will have to take the extra steps up the DirectX ladder sooner rather than later, just to keep up with the Joneses. Last thing we need though is rash decisions made in haste and later regretted. I have no problem being late to the DX11/12 party as long as the time spent in evaluation of all options available comes up trumps. If it's going to take longer because S3 want to create their own, then so be it. I have every faith in the team and know although @J-F Chardon may well lose a few nights sleep over the decision the right one will be made (no pressure!) :D
    As long as RR continues its path of ever improving, updating and coming up with such great content I'm more than happy, I really am 'enjoying the journey' and don't feel the slightest embarrassed at getting excited (at my age) when an update drops, almost every month, with all sorts of goodies. I can honestly say, that I never expected to see when I first downloaded RR over 6 years ago, to be where it is now. To be spending as much time as I can, on the same Sim for so long, says it all. The thought of RR with dynamic tracks, weather, day/night, driver swaps, cup holders, not sure my ticker would take it. :eek: So maybe the nice slow gentle approach would keep a few of us older drivers alive that bit longer, be nice to get to the end! ;)
     
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