Cut Track penalties (DT + S&G) feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Simon Fillingham, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. Simon Fillingham

    Simon Fillingham Well-Known Member

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    Hi @J-F Chardon & Dev team,

    Coffees at the ready, long-ish post alert!

    So it has been a couple of years this feature was introduced in the 12/09/17 update:
    You asked for feedback and after 2 years of using the DT penalty at RRLeagues I am ready to give it. I want to raise some concerns about the DT & S&G cut track penalty, which in turn I hope may lead to some tweaking being actioned.

    When I first read of the adjustment I thought it was a positive step forward as occasionally (not often) drivers could fall foul of a DT penalty through no real fault of their own (punt, etc). I thought a bigger leeway (0.5s) would give them more chance of escaping an 'unfair' penalty.

    I was wrong. What really cured this unfortunate situation was this (in the March '18 update)...

    What we are left with is some logic that is far too lenient on drivers abusing track limits. For the game to allow unlimited 0.5s cuts of the track is a bad solution IMO and is allowing drivers to create many bad habits.

    If you think of an average race track having 15 corners, that could be a potential 7.5s gain per lap if he/she was to cut the apex of each corner. And what if they were really desperate and exceeded TL at entry, apex and exit? Unlikely, but there's no way this sim should be allowing such big gains without penalty.

    After just a few races at RRL after the 12/09/17 update, it was commented on (within our community) that 0.5s was too much, but the reason I mention it now is that RRL is in the process of migrating our results management to RaceApp. RA offers more stats than we previously had access to, one of them being an 'Off Track' count. I was embarrassed to find out that I had cut the track ~40 times during a 90min race at Imola compared to another guy who exceeded TL zero times and finished 4th. Looking at other results on RA it is apparent I have a problem with 'pinching a bit of track' and I had no idea I was doing it so often. I hold you responsible for this :D, but seriously, the 0.5s leeway has made me a careless/sloppy/undisciplined/unfair driver and I am not alone.

    0.5s may be acceptable to the casual racer who is just racing for fun in SP, but in a league environment where we want to be professional, honest & fair, this logic is preventing us from being so. I notice all the R3E esports events use the slow-down penalty and this is often being tweaked to find the best result so I hope you could find the time to service the DT + S&G penalty too.

    What I would like to see as a solution is (in preference order):

    1) NO leeway. Game allows 3 cut track instances. From the 4th they get a DT at each cut.
    2) A slideable scale on the dedi server that allows server admins to set the leeway allowed.
    3) A return to 0.1s leeway.

    (1) & (2) I see as solutions that would need development time to implement. (3) I suspect would be an easy tweak.

    (1) I don't think its quite that simple and I'm sure you will have considered similar before and been left with indecision.

    (2) probably hard to implement but I think drivers will need a period of rehab to wean them off their bad habits so a slideable scale would assist this. It would also be an acceptable option for those who are happy with 0.5s.

    It will be interesting to hear from other drivers/communities if they use the DT/S&G cut track penalty and what they think of it. If you aren't using it, what are your reasons for this and how would you like to see it evolve?
     
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  2. J-F Chardon

    J-F Chardon KW Studios Developer

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    Thanks @Simon Fillingham for taking the time to explain this problem and coming up with a detailed suggestion.

    I see no problem in doing it as you asked, the slider on dedi side might be what's most complicated in your suggestion.
    But what you wrote makes a lot of sense.

    It is true that we've exclusively been using slowdown penalties and neglected DT and S&G's, but we'll look into implementing your suggested solutions for the end of year mega-update.
     
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  3. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen KW Studios Developer Beta tester

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    I just want to add that an ‘off-track’ is not the same as a ‘track-cut’. On a lot of tracks you are actually doing it wrong if you are not getting off-tracks reported, because this can often just be touching the grass or run-off with a wheel, or using a lot of curb.

    no system is perfect but i think raceroom does a very good job at allowing racing while not allowing cheating with the cut track detection. I’ve never used the DT version of it but i would agree that it shouldn’t ‘unsee’ any small cuts, allowing a certain number of cuts in a time window sounds much better imo.
     
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  4. Simon Fillingham

    Simon Fillingham Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for listening @J-F Chardon,

    - This probably needs some fine-tuning. As Thomas said, allowing a certain number of cuts in a time window sounds better, so whether it should be the same 3 cuts allowed in a 30 min race as a 2h+ race needs some thought.
    - With this logic (3 allowable cuts) you also need to guard against those who might be tempted to cut out a whole section of track, so gains above a certain value (2secs?) should be penalised with an instant DT? It's never as easy as it sounds getting it right and as Thomas again rightly points out, no system is perfect.

    off-tracks/cut tracks I like to call exceeding track limits. we all have a certain width of track we have to race on. allowing 0.5s makes the track wider beyond the white lines which most drivers (rightly) like to keep to. removing the 0.5s just brings the width of track back to the original white line meaning I have to unlearn my bad habits. but yes, I can accept there are instances where TL of curb meet TL of asphalt and these are not necessarily smooth and TL can be exceeded.

    more input/ideas would be welcome at this point. :)
     
  5. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    What this boils down to I suppose is what iracing calls incident points. If raceroom is logging track cuts anyway then surely a similar system would be the solution. Thereby all cuts/indescressions are logged and are penalised according to severity. A wheel on the grass does not equal straight lining a chicane for example. The maximum number of cuts or points or whatever could be set server side. The aim of any system would be to promote clean driving and penalise poor driving. That can only be done by 1. Informing the driver of each offence. 2. Making the driver aware of how many offences are acceptable and 3. Penalising with a DT, S&G or black flag when that limit is exceeded. We have to move to a situation where the driver treats his sim car as if it were real, ie going off track should be avoided at all costs. Improvements to the damage system will also help with this, treat your car badly and it will let you down.
     
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  6. Simon Fillingham

    Simon Fillingham Well-Known Member

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    Now we have this extra data from RA, we have had discussions in our staff room about implementing a time penalty if a driver exceeds x amount of 'off-tracks' in a given period of time. 3 cuts per 30 mins were mentioned as allowable but there were disagreements about a few things not least the 'a wheel on the grass does not equal straight-lining a chicane' debate.

    So I thought I would shift the responsibility to S3 :)

    ...but the line has to be drawn somewhere with what is regarded fair and unfair. And the line is already there, in white and at the edge of the track. If you allow a bit of leeway, drivers will push that limit and again complain, 'oh come on, it was only a pixel out of the limit', so why not make it easy and use the world-renowned limit indicator - the white line. Drivers know where it is and if they choose to push this limit they know the consequences.

    But I don't want this to turn into a track limit argument, although it does often accompany this kind of penalty debate.

    We need an acceptable solution to what is currently not acceptable, IMO.

    I would certainly keep the logic from the March '18 update though in any new solution, that was a winner!
     
  7. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I would argue that the track limits in RR are too lenient anyway. Is it based on 2 wheels on the track where kerbs are part of the track? So basically you can have 90% of your car on the grass and it's ok.... I'd say wheels inside white lines apart from on kerbs where you can put a wheel on the kerb. Any wheel on the grass or off the kerb should be penalised
    As you say, give an inch and drivers take a mile.

    The only issue with this is there is no room for discretion that would be applied in the real world, eg if a driver is forced off track or bumped off.
     
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  8. Simon Fillingham

    Simon Fillingham Well-Known Member

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    The logic introduced in March '18 update accounts for this real world discretion quite well, and I'm sure it will stay. As beautifully explained...

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Ah well that's pretty good then, I didn't know the system was that intelligent.
     
  10. Simon Fillingham

    Simon Fillingham Well-Known Member

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    Not much feedback from others on this topic.

    Whilst I think this is a better solution to what we currently have, there may well have to be some leeway allowed to account for human error. IRL we don't see drivers penalised for having a 3rd (or 4th wheel) out of TL occasionally. At certain problem corners there may well be an extra rule that demands drivers keep to TL, but in general, rightly or wrongly, drivers get away with an occasional breach of TL.

    I think we need to try and include this in whatever tweak of the DT/SnG penalty we arrive at. Being too strict here (no leeway) may do more harm than good.

    So maybe a compromise could be...

    0.05s leeway; Game allows 3 cuts above 0.05s; 4th & subsequent cuts = DT/SnG

    It's possible you could try 2 new bits of logic for the cut track penalty, applying 1 to DT and 1 to SnG.
     
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