please guys do not change your graphic engine

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by doclucio, Sep 28, 2019.

  1. nolive721

    nolive721 Well-Known Member

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    I saw the same comments when I suggested a SOL equivalent mod would be a fantastic addition to RRE

    I am not a Software Dev but what about all these DX9 Games we see being remastered over the years, surely there are possibilities to work out solutions and bring improved graphics features in RRE too no?

    on the question in this thread, the only selfish wish I have is that if Sector3 move to another engine would be to leave the UE4 alone because despite a pretty beefy OCed VEGA 64LC, I cant run a properly locked 60fps on my triple screen set-up in ACC unless going to Med settings which then make the Game look not so special so please, no UE4

    Get the SMS engine instead and p***s off people at Reiza studio:D:D
     
  2. Vantskruv

    Vantskruv Member

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    So if not UE4, DX11 is old too, release date 2009, while DX12 released 2015. And to add more spice, why not use Vulcan instead? :D

    Devs are rather quite, either they have something up their sleeve, and I guess probably a new engine (UE4), or they are fighting each other which graphichal API they will use. :rolleyes:

    Though, I do guess R3E will not be updated anymore engine-wise, and instead will be replaced sooner or later... :p
     
  3. fbiehne

    fbiehne Well-Known Member

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    As long as they port all the glorious content to the new engine I’m fine with that. :)
     
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  4. Aurigarius

    Aurigarius Member

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    Much more important to me than to have ACC-like graphics is the way the driving feels. I really prefer that over all the other sims I have tested and I hope they keep that
     
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  5. Bull Shark

    Bull Shark Well-Known Member

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    Vulcan would be a nice upgrade indeed..:D
     
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  6. OlivierMDVY

    OlivierMDVY Active Member

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    Replaced by GTR3? Maybe GTR3 will be a R3E like?
     
  7. Wilko Jones

    Wilko Jones Well-Known Member

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    Lets give this a try. Standard-day, here I come!

    It works, and I can easily see the differences, but I ended up changing it back to default. I guess I've grown use to the brown tint.

    That doesn't mean I am not for a graphics update though. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  8. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    The one advantageof the status quo with the engine that should not be underestimated or easily given up, is the thing is stable, and fast in frames even with plenty of AI cars around. I know how my rig is smoking in VR in Assetto Corsa Competizione and FS20 in VR. I get them running with smooth framerates, yes, in VR, yes, and with medium and some high settings, yes - but at the cost of being apple to cook dinner on my PC tower.

    With VR beign a must in racing for me now, I hate the idea of compromising stutter-free framerates just for a different look, night and weather. Its nice to have in ACC, yes, spectacular, but in RR I prefer smooth framerates in VR above having another title with weather and night.

    And not U4E, please. Its not good for VR, it seems.

    The thing with RR is: its stable, still looks good enough, is powerperforming. In principle there is no real need to replace it. Just luxury desires. :D
     
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  9. Vale

    Vale Well-Known Member

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    100% agree. Now the car physics have been fixed, the main pending issue is to improve the UI to provide more real time in race data so we don´t need a third party overlay and that is not a limitation of DX9. Dynamic weather including rain can also be done with DX9, GTR2 had it.

    Moving graphics engine would likely cause more performance issues on lower end systems than the real tangible benefits. Youtubers who like making movies showing external views and those watching Esport races might not agree, but I don´t see it to be essential for actual players.
     
  10. fbiehne

    fbiehne Well-Known Member

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    I just don't really get the people here wanting this sim to be stuck with DX9 and no new engine. Is it fear of change? I really like Raceroom with all its great car classes but the VR performance with DX9 is just ok at best. I understand that all these guys with no VR question a potential engine change but come on....we're in 2021 and all other sims are on a more contemporary and modern engine. Raceroom would benefit performance and graphic wise (if utilized correctly), even for no VR users.
     
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  11. GooseCreature

    GooseCreature Well-Known Member

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    Good job they didn't stay at 4 and that 5 is available, which funnily enough they improved immensely. 6 is in development. ;)
    I also don't mind how things are (apart from the random slide showing) but we do need more light sources and night/day for all those thousands and thousands of endurance racers that apparently flock here for the one endurance car in the Sim, rain on the other hand would be very welcome, British tracks in brilliant sunshine and no puddles just doesn't feel believable to a Brit or anyone who has ever been here or watched sport on tv from here, we're an island and it rains, it rains a lot, it's drizzling here now even though it's bloody freezing, still drizzling.
     
  12. GooseCreature

    GooseCreature Well-Known Member

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    Start a fundraiser, gonna cost an arm and a leg.
    Two options, on top of standing still that I can see, get GTR3 to develop/use a brand new engine and then nick it or RR2, now I certainly don't want the latter, yet the former appears to be just pie in the sky, Discord channel or not (I can set up a Discord channel). Whoever mentioned the Mad Engine must be, well mad. The feel of AMS2 is just plain awful, I did get one car to feel quite good then they updated and it's all gone to crap in the handling department, no matter how good it looks, I don't enjoy driving in it.
    Nope, wouldn't want to have to make the decision on which way to go but go it must, dragging ones feet, especially in these turbulent times could be costly, then again, standing still may just be the way to go presently. as the future climate is the great unknown and with Codemasters selling out (Pfff like they didn't years ago) the playing field is changing rapidly. Also not forgetting that with all the exposure on Sim racing this past year there must be opportunities for investment.
    RR is on the cusp of greatness imho. The climate is right and the product is great, could just do with some sparkle and rain.
    Let's face it, if I want a race I can guarantee one on RR, it will start, load tracks pretty damn quick, has a great selection of content, an almost faultless online presence and the best community in Sim racing, add rain and I genuinely wouldn't go elsewhere.
     
  13. fbiehne

    fbiehne Well-Known Member

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    @GooseCreature

    Well, you’re the exact person I meant with my post. :D
    If you want "sparkle and rain" then there probably is no other solution than a more modern engine.

    Besides: I think AMS2 is more than decent. The FFB is excellent and the madness engine is technically impressive. Reiza now needs to polish the hell out of AMS2 which is tbh still a long way to go. When was the last time you tried AMS2? Don’t forget to delete the 'Automobilista 2' folder under 'Documents' when there is a massive update otherwise the cars might feel weird/wrong. I’d give it another try if I were you.
     
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  14. pixeljetstream

    pixeljetstream Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    The mad engine is indeed pretty good compromise on efficiency. Agreeing that AMS2 improves, however also want to point out that an engine has different components and therefore if you wanted you could of course only take the gfx bits.

    It's really just a matter of investment in appropriate talent for a team, licensing or outsourcing a port to something modern.

    I think what many here seem to completely ignore is that using the ancient tech and engine of r3e essentially disencourages new talent and improvements of developers themselves. If you are working with something designed decades ago, your employees do not grow to modern technology standards. You are wasting your employees talent, or not attract it in the first place.

    @fbiehne is right imo, people who seem to think it's a bad idea to upgrade technology in a technology-based products and development environment don't seem to understand the processes involved.
     
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  15. Enrik

    Enrik Member

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    I sincerely agree with those who would not change the current RR. I believe this also depends on the hardware you have. I have low-medium hardware (ì7 4790, 8 Gb ram, Nvidia 1050 ti 4 Gb) and I find fantastic to play on RR. I've been playing on ACC for two years but this is a killer for my hardware. I have everything on mid and I can't get more than 50 fps stable with max 15 AI on the track. Then I got RF2 but I hate its cartoon graphics and it takes five minutes to load Nordshleife and if I add some AI drop to 30fps.With RR I can put 30/35 Ai on Nordshleife and I have 60 fps ... heaven! In fact I enjoyed recreating a real situation I saw on YT .. a BMW M6 that surpasses everyone (crazy !!). So I got an M6, 30 AI (cayman, audi tt, legend, wtcr ..) and starting in last position I recreated a day of traffic at the nordshleife. This would be impossible on RF2.
    Also I really like the graphics of RR, I'm also talking about layout, wide streets, internal visual that give an effect of immersion. Basically I have RR since December and I only play this. There are details that I love madly like the kick of the gearbox. The FFB is also great. Maybe only the physics is more permissive than RF2 which remains unbeatable but the RF2 visual's world is small and tight, I don't like it. And if you increase fov the visual seem to pass from 3d to 2d. I also played GTR, GTR2 in the early 2000s .. and I remember the rain. So maybe it's not impossible to implement without having to increase DX. Having said that (excuse me for the long post) I just hope for the addition of some circuits that I love: Mugello, Estoril, Interlagos, Monaco ... but as someone said in this forum this is a very underrated game. Great RR !!:)
     
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  16. Vale

    Vale Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that new is always better, the Madness engine was developed specifically for racing games yet it has had fundamental issues with car physics and AI that have still not been fixed after more than 6 years. Part of the issue has been the SMS policy of releasing new games every 2 years and not refining the basic game, which RRE, Iracing and RF2 have all done to different degrees of success.

    ACC will not run smoothly on max level or VR on any current affordable machine so that limits the customer base and income. Eventually this won´t be a problem but you need cashflow to survive.

    We have seen that RRE has evolved a lot in terms of physics and there is still a lot of untapped potential with dynamic weather, driver changes, other types of mechanical failures, track temperature etc that can be incorporated. I wouldn´t want to see all that good work go down the drain by following the paths of the multiplatform games, which were developed with console games in mind more than PC gamers.

    Back in the day, F1GP 3 and 4 were graphically behind their rivals but those games are still being played today with an active
    community developing new content, whereas the shinier alternative games from EA and the like have been forgotten. A similar thing is happening with AC still having more active players than all the other Steam racing games combined. It woud be interesting to know how many of them are using the SOL and CSP mods.
     
  17. pixeljetstream

    pixeljetstream Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    You are drawing conclusions on few titles that newer is worse. AC is a great example for being robust over the years cause it has a way more modern base as R3E and was very well architected.

    This doesn't have to be a binary choice and you can do the same gfx as R3E has today with a modern engine with less resource use and more scalability to leverage the potential of your hardware.

    This attitude really surprises me in the context that motor sport is very technology driven. Even as I enjoy the vintage content foremost, that was peak technology at its days.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  18. Vale

    Vale Well-Known Member

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    Motorsport is only technology driven when there is money available to fund it. We can see how the current economic situation has finally forced F1 teams into a reality check with cost cap and freeze on development and how tech series such as WEC and DTM are struggling to make up their grids. The GT3 series has weathered most storms due in part to the contained costs of buying the car and the annual upgrades that can be fitted to the older chassis without having to buy a whole new car every year.

    I think some people (myself included) are not interested in the marginal gaphical gains versus the expense of having to buy a whole new system to run a game that works perfectly fine now.

    It costs money to develop or buy a new game engine and this has to be offset by the player base willing to pay for that content. It´s no coincidence that Iracing has stayed very conservative because they rely on subscription based revenue.
     
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  19. fbiehne

    fbiehne Well-Known Member

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    Iracing stayed very conservative regarding engine enhancements because a large part of their customer base still uses ancient technology (more so than in other titles is my impression). So you can say Iracing wanted to improve their sim / make it future-proof but was hindered by some vocal customers who still think running a modern sim can be achieved by using old technology. You have to accept that some day the technology you use needs to be updated. It's how it is.

    I'm glad that Iracing made the decision to improve or modernize their title regardless. It looks really great (in VR) and has night/day transitions, a really good crashmodel on some cars etc. Only thing missing is rain. And better FFB perhaps (though it is much better with iRFFB). :p
     
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  20. pixeljetstream

    pixeljetstream Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    @Vale both games that you mention in positive light, AC and iRacing actually do have newer tech than R3E... That is our point. So I really am not sure what your argument is. How technology is used is up to the developers, that's why sacrificing physics and ffb for the gfx is simply bogus. Slightly mad simply made a different choice about how their physics works for their commercially succesful titles, that has nothing to do with how their gfx work.

    There is no law that says because you rewrite an engine that it needs more hardware as minimum requirement, actually the opposite is more likely, as tools and knowledge on designs has improved and matured over the years. Some of this sticking to the past sounds as if R3E has the ultimate best dx9 engine and hence any improvements aren't possible without requiring more hw power. It doesn't suck, but it is outdated, look at the component files some are from 2008, 2010. Cg files are in there, Cg was terminated in 2012, d3dx runtime was deprecated in the same year by Microsoft, that is even before R3E shipped in 2013, so it was using tech/tools that was already dead (and known to be cpu-overhead inducing). The original engine developers from the simbin days are all long gone.

    You make a fair point that investing in technology on the publisher's end isn't dirt cheap, and hence it's unlikely we will see it happen, but that is not a good reason to argue in favor of old technology from us consumer's perspective. This game is in a similar situation of AMS1 that was really well polished but just hit the maximum of what can be done with that engine. S3S steadily tweaks its AI, physics and ffb, no doubt, and the content team is still doing very good quality, but come on we have dx11 hardware for more than 10 years now... I am working on real-time graphics for more than 20 years. I loved the simbin titles but one could clearly see they were milking race07 a really long time as well, and similar is happening here. It just sucks given the talent at s3s that they are not given more appropriate tech opportunities from the publisher.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021