GetReal? Really?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by sergeich, May 16, 2020.

  1. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    We've just had a discussion about that and Alex checked in-game and we can't really replicate that. He was able to shift just as quick as I would expect to be physically able to.
    If you could provide some footage highlighting what you think doesn't work the way it should in RR (ideally a video with input meter enabled), that'd help us investigate this.
     
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  2. wesker6664

    wesker6664 Member

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    I can shift very fast too, the problem is that damage is slowly building up after a few laps...

    Could you please tell me your clutch settings in game ? If that doesn't work i'll try to make a video

    Many thanks !
     
  3. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    The H-pattern and clutch simulation might not be totally accurate, but the point is that it takes skill to shift fast with this combination, without ruining the gearbox. Skills I don't posess, but which I enjoy practising, and which I believe is portayed quite ok, with its flaws. But you can't just yank it between gears - the old school drivers didn't do that either.

    It helps to adjust the clutch sensitivity and deadzones, to have a faster and more precise clutch. It works for me, at least, I think I have set it to 75% sensitivity with 25% lower dead zone.

    What I find most annoying and unrealistic, is the clutch slip which occurs when shifting too fast - not the damage I get when doing it wrong. It also happens when upshifting without clutch sometimes. I would rather have gearbox damage than this strange artifact. A racing clutch shouldn't slip at all.

    @Christian Göpfert Do you know if this is still a bug, or is it intended behaviour to prevent too fast shifting? I can't really see any way to exploit this, other than that skilled manual clutch drivers can shift faster than autoclutch drivers.
     
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  4. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    You beat me to it. I can replicate this with most H-pattern cars, will look into it if you're interested.
     
  5. wesker6664

    wesker6664 Member

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    Oooh yes i almost forgot this one - the slipping clutch - so infuriating !!! And the second reason why i don't use manual clutch anymore
     
  6. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    We were trying the E30 M3 this morning and later on Alex recorded this in the R32:

    This looks about alright in terms of the possible shifting speed imo.

    One thing we have to take into account when it comes to h-pattern cars, which are usually classics, is inertia.
    You have several components involved in a gearchange like the propshaft and the flywheel, which don't react instantaneously and carry more or less inertia depending on what they were made of.
    The S1 in the video I posted above most likely had pretty advanced parts to minimise this and other cars (classic touring or DTM f.e.) would have used different components.

    AfaIk we're one of the few sims who simulate this inertia. I know there are other sims were you can just slam in gears willy-nilly, but that's ignoring some of the physical aspects at play here.
     
  7. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you - it's not supposed to possible to just yank it into gear at any speed. My only concern is the clutch slipping. Any words on that? It was much worse in a previous version, and now it's hardly noticable, but it's still there.
     
  8. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    For me, limiting shifting speed is one of the problems where the solution is worse than the actual problem.
    Yes, IRL you're limited with how fast the you can shift...but in a way that is irreproducible with current mainstream simgear.

    IRL you press the clutch, apply pressure on the stick, and once the gear moves into position, the gear is 100% in, and you can release the clutch. You won't be able to move the stick until all gearbox components speeds are aligned. This haptic feedback is very important, and is something that is missing using sim gear.

    In sims the stick moves, there is no resistance, so you release the clutch, only to find out you didn't satisfy some arbitrary sim timer, and the gearbox starts grinding.

    Neither, the ability to shift fast, or the gearbox starting to grind after you release the clutch are realistic. But the solution can be quite a nuisance, which the original problem is not.
     
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  9. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    For me it's only sth I read about in the past (here and the internal chat) and I remember some testers talking about it not too long ago, but when the wheel talk begins my puny gamepad-mind generally drifts towards topics that concern me more. ;)

    But I can ask around and see what's the status.
     
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  10. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually quite comfortable with gear grinding coming from improper shifting, even if it's partially controlled by an "arbitrary sim timer". I accept this compromise, even when I miss a gear, lose a race and shout "this would never have happened, if this were a real gearbox!". But it isn't a real gearbox.
     
  11. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I'll make a video showing the issue I'm talking about, in case anyone wants to check it out.
     
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  12. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    It's a fair point you're raising, but I definitely won't be the one to tell Alex to tone down the realism when it comes to simulating the inner workings of the machine he probably knows better than all of us. ;)

    But on the other hand I agree that even in a "sim" there has to be a certain degree of "playability"...

    All I can say for now is that he's aware of the criticism and he's always looking for ways to improve things, so I guess the final say is yet to be made.
    So keep the feedback coming and as said earlier back it up with numbers and footage if you can, that way Alex has sth to work with. Subjective statements of feeling are always hard to translate into code.
     
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  13. Arthur Spooner

    Arthur Spooner Well-Known Member

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    Talking about H-pattern...

    The one thing that bugs me about H-pattern shifting - apart from the clutch slipping issue - is the difference in how mis-shifts are handled when shifting up compared to shifting down.

    When I shift up sloppy and don't hit the clutch enough or too early/late, the result is, that the gear doesn't get engaged and I hear an awful gear-grind-noise but there is no damage applied to the gearbox. And additionally I have to push the clutch again, go back to neutral on my shifter and then engage the gear again and after that I can finally let go off the clutch again.

    The same sloppyness on downshifts has a completely different outcome. Only a short unpleasant noise, the gear gets engaged and usually a bit of damage is applied to the gearbox.

    I'd really like to know the reason behind this @Alex Hodgkinson.
     
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  14. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    On that video, on the downshifts he's only pressing the clutch about 1/3 of the way down....that can't be right?
     
  15. wesker6664

    wesker6664 Member

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    Thanks for that video Christian ! But... the hud doesn't display damage unfortunately... was it on ? Could it be possible to make another video with damage shown on the hud ?
    Another (minor) point is that i find the clutch to be lacking some "bite" when upsifting, its noticeable in your video : gear changes are very smooth, almost like a modern dual clutch... could something be done about that ? To give an example, i like how it's done in AMS2 in a similar car
     
  16. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    I think there is some sort of "smoothing" applied when releasing the clutch, which also sometimes leads to the annoying clutch slip mentioned earlier. I agree that releasing the clutch should not be smooth, it should be almost violent.
     
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  17. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Most racing boxes aren't synchros and so don't need the clutch for upshifts anyway, a lift of the gas is all that's needed. Not sure how well we have that aspect modelled though.
     
  18. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    True, but as can be seen in many rl vids like the one I linked above you will see that more often than not the drivers will use the clutch on every shift, probably to unload the gearbox.
    Damage was enabled and the STACK data display has those little damage icons embedded on the side which blink when you damage the according component, like so:
    upload_2020-6-3_11-44-55.png
    You can actually see that he picked up some on a handful of shifts (@0:52 f.e.).

    Btw, there's an extended version of that video where he's trying several cars, just thought it's a bit too long to quote, but you can have a look here if you're interested:
    In general, how much damage are we talking about? Is it just a tiny bit each time you don't hit the shift perfectly or does it take away larger chunks? If it's miniscule and won't affect the user's ability to finish even longer races safely, I'd like to keep that as an indicator of increased wear when you slightly mis-shift.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  19. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Ok yes fair enough, this dtm E30 video does indeed show clutching on upshift..
     
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  20. wesker6664

    wesker6664 Member

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    Perfect Christian, so this video clearly shows that damage is occuring only during downshifts, hopefully that helps to isolate the problem. I see that Alex is heel&toeing just fine, no fault in the driving technique so something must be wrong on the game side ?
    I can't tell how much damage though, just that on the nordschleife damage is showing up after half lap more or less