do you find AI usually qualify better than they race?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Daeburon, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Daeburon

    Daeburon New Member

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    I havnt done too many full races with qualifying, but the few i have it always seems this way. I might start 8th and finish #3, or start 5th and take #1.

    I've seen this in a lot of games. I suspect devs do it to try and make the race more interesting. the player qualifying worse creates some tension, urgency and desire to win. the race happens, the player has a better than expected result based on qualifying, making the player feel good about their performance. it makes the game more exciting, and creates a rollercoaster that keeps the player coming back. if the race result is generally close to the starting grid order, maybe some players get bored of it.

    for an arcade game, i think this mechanic is totally great, as the point of the game is pure entertainment for the player.

    However, for a sim, i find this to be a turn off. AI should be realistic, not suddenly under or over perform for the sake of theatrics. a sim should be about realism, not fiction.

    im hoping in RRE this has just been a fluke...or maybe its depends on AI level. (im playing against AI level 90-92) maybe it would be ok if lower AI levels did this, for newer players, but hopefully at a certain point its not fake like this, it feels scripted, which is a real turn off.

    another reason this is a turn off, is that if you want to turn the AI up so they perform close to you in a race, it probably means they cream you in qualy...so then you have to start at the back of the grid and fight to get to the front. it shouldnt work like this, its not realistic. it should be possible to qualify in 1st, and finish in first the whole race with only a small gap behind, not have to fight all the way from the back, or turn AI down so much you start in 1st and finish 1st with a ridiculous 2 minute gap or something. IRL in many races, the podium is going to be drivers from the top 5 or so on the grid. heroic results like going from back of the grid to the podium can and do happen, but these should be extremely rare, not an every occurrence.
     
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  2. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    I definitely share the feeling that theyre quicker in qualy than in the race and seeing your ai level i doubt its related to that as im typically at 110-115 and run into the same issues
     
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  3. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    I believe that this phenomenon mostly stems from an attempt to replicate real life results.
    Take any real life racing series and qualifying lap times will always be much quicker than lap times during the actual race, so in theory this kind of behaviour isn't unrealistic at all.

    The problem is that besides the pure data there's a variety of reason as to why race lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and we can only simulate a few of them realistically. We've talked to the devs about this in the past and it's also been brought up and acknowledged in regards to DTM now, so it's definitely not ignored.
     
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  4. anno900

    anno900 Well-Known Member

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    That is good to hear.
    My experiences and thoughts.
    Experiences:
    Did a qual+race (whole chamionship to be precise) with touring car classic fixed AI 100%.
    Round 1 at Moscow (full layout):
    I qualified 1st and finished 5th. AI had about 1 second fatser lap times in race (so the opposite of what Deaburn/Nico/Christian) wrote.
    Rounds 2-5 (last of them at Motegi (full layout):
    Quite the same at all 4 rounds. I qualified mid pack and raced mid pack. AI was about as quick as in qualy.

    Experiences from former races:
    Especially at Ningbo and Zhejiang: AI qualifies 2-3 seconds faster than in race. So you can catch up from dead last in qualy to podium in a 10 minutes race.

    My settings are:
    no tire wear
    no fuel consumption
    no pitstops
    fixed day time, no time multiplicator
    standard car setup
    So my goal if I race against the AI: Make the settings as standardized as possible.
    I do not know if AI used these parameters as well or if they run empty fuel tank at qualy etc.

    So my thoughts:
    At some tracks (there are a few more than those 2 Chinese tracks, but at them the difference is significant) AI has a bonus or malus at qualy for whatever reason. Also taking into account that I change the cars, which I drive, quite often and I do not play the game that ofter (1-3x per week for one race weekend). So getting used to a car may take 1-2 race weeknds and also being not on the same at each track (even if I know them quite good) I come to the conclusion that for qualy there is some black magic in the backround.

    Anyway. Thumbs up for the racing sim game with by far the best AI. The race at Moscow, where I fall back from 1st to 5th was a blast. Absolutely mind blowing with AI battles, where AI tried to overtake on the outside line, side by side for multiple coreners etc.. It was like MX5 cup race with battles all over.
     
  5. TheOutdriver97

    TheOutdriver97 Well-Known Member

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    I've noticed a slight decrease in AI pace from qualifying to race but as @Christian G mentions, this happens in real world racing.

    Because the car has to be as fast as possible over a small number of laps in qualifying teams will set their car up more aggressively (increased camber etc.) and besides maybe an early banker lap drivers will be on maximum attack.

    During a race the car will be setup to manage the race distance as efficiently as possible and drivers may elect to drive to a number to manage tyre life and fuel load so it is rare real world racing cars hit the same numbers in racing that they do in qualifying.

    Personally, I think RaceRoom gets its right give or take slightly. Project Cars 2 got it horribly wrong with superbot qualifying AI and toddler race AI.
     
  6. anno900

    anno900 Well-Known Member

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    I'm quite fine with the current situation. Just some smaller issues as I described above at very certain tracks.
    If you watch more amateur class racing (BRSCC etc.) the pace lap times and qual lap times do not differ that much.
    Of course at higher classes, there is nmore money and they can spend time in special qualy-setup use a set of tires just for onhe fast lap for qualy.
    So all in all I'm fine, just some nuances.
     
  7. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the AI is too fast in qualifying / too slow in races right now.
     
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  8. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    Chang is particularly bad!
     
  9. R.Noctua

    R.Noctua Well-Known Member

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    I would like to add that AI gets more fuel than it needs for race.
     
  10. rubenbatista

    rubenbatista Member

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    The only problem I have with the AI is in DTM 2020. They are crazy fast in some tracks and in others are so slow (with same difficulty level), so doing a championship is always weird. Also, doing 55 minutes + 1 lap (like DTM in real life) they always pit a second time immediately after they pitted the first time (no idea why, happens in most circuits) and stay in the pits for ages. That means that the player always wins 1 minute ahead everyone. In Hockenheim the AI crashes almost every lap in T1, T2 and Mercedes Arena (107-109 difficulty).
     
  11. Audii-Dudii

    Audii-Dudii New Member

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    I am surprised to read this, because for the past week, I have been racing 2016 Audi TTs on the full course at Mid Ohio with the AI set at 110 and qualifying lap times -- for both AI and yours truly -- are consistently slower than the quickest race lap times, often by half a second or more during a 25-minute race. And that's with tire wear, fuel consumption, etc. turned on full, too.

    As a related aside, I would estimate that at least half the time, I set my quickest lap of a race within the final three laps, with tires at the yellow wear bar level, which seems a bit out of whack, because it seems logical I'd lose more time with tire wear than I gain by carrying less fuel...
     
  12. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    Personally I'm fine with that - I justify it with me not being experienced enough to do a proper quali lap; I don't change my driving style, I don't change setup, etc. I simply try to do a clean fast lap, so the results are somewhat as I expect.

    My biggest immersion-breaker with AI in quali is that they don't give themselves some space to have a clean uninterrupted lap, instead they just keep doing laps after laps until the time runs out; too often they're stuck behind a slower driver for the whole session. Which makes quali times really inconsistent and unrealistic.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  13. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin Moderator Beta tester

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    Auditt has push to pass which isnt available in the quali session , on sometracks you can use three ptp , so there is a good margin to be had over a quali time , add a possible tow down a straight and it makes sense

    Andi
     
  14. Hendrick

    Hendrick Well-Known Member

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    Here are my thoughts on the subject. Its natural like in all if not most form of motorsport to be faster in qualifying then come race day lap times drop. So on that point yes its visible in the game and I like it. I run AI at 99% lowest and have a mix of 16 GT3 and 12 GT4 multiclass races both sprint and endurance. So with 28 cars on track and 15mins qualifying I have no issues. Everyone is able to get their fastest times in and the grid is very competitive from pole to last in each class. Faster AI driver overtake one another, they pit for fuel and new tires and the track is constantly occupied. I enjoy the challenge of finding a gap, warming the brakes and tires, then going all out attack. Yes you do notice a pack here and there. Qualifying behavior or spread pattern is always going to be hard to simulate but as long as the lap times remain unaffected or competitive I have no complaints. As for the sprint and endurance races they all fun, no breakaways, nothing is decided until you get the flag. I do not use Adaptive AI, that was a mess for me. I do not run hotlap setups on races because I know I will gain an unfair advantage and distort the balance of the game.
     
  15. Audii-Dudii

    Audii-Dudii New Member

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    Well, that explains that. <smacks head>

    Thanks!
     
  16. blgk

    blgk Member

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    Engine maps:
    I should also mention at this point that our AI will make use of this new feature. They will use the highest available map during qualifying sessions and are capable of switching maps during races. They will usually use the highest map available that will enable them to finish the race without having to make extra pit stops.​
     
  17. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

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    Somehow this problem seems to be gone after the latest updates, can anybody confirm that?