Released DTM 2020

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Georg Ortner, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. Muca

    Muca Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Ratings:
    +27 / 0 / -0
    I raced today DTM 2020 on Spa against an esport guy with default setup. He did low 2:03 every lap. Sector 1 and 3 were almost the same but he was 2 sec faster in sector 2. The amount of grip he had was insane without even using the outside kerbs properly, he could have gone even faster. It looked like the car defied physics. The car was not nervous, it was planted and like on rails.
    Are the setups SO much better than default? I usually only change rear wing for balance and I did not think that setup could give you so much grip.
     
  2. FeltHλt

    FeltHλt Moderator Beta tester

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Ratings:
    +478 / 0 / -0
    [​IMG]
    (default setup is good btw, dont fall into setup trap)
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. Muca

    Muca Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Ratings:
    +27 / 0 / -0
    I also like the default setup. I know that this guy is way faster than me but I was shocked about the grip difference. Is it the ride height? Maybe that was the reason he did not use the kerbs that much.
     
  4. Kierownik

    Kierownik New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Decided to buy the pack and the cars are really amazing and fun to drive. They're hard and demanding but so satisfying after some practice. The AI however is a bit all over the place in terms of realistic performance. Kubica or Scherer winning the races isn't what we see in real life :tongueout:
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Ratings:
    +155 / 0 / -0
  6. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson KW Studios Developer

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2017
    Ratings:
    +1,948 / 0 / -0
    That is the million pound question; what makes the fast guys fast?
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Ratings:
    +102 / 0 / -0
    Practice and listening to details. Setup is one of the least factors (if not bugusing/exploiting)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Ratings:
    +155 / 0 / -0

    Hehe .. the question was more related to the setup.
    What could be the point that makes it?
    Or is it ultimately just the skill?
     
  9. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Ratings:
    +155 / 0 / -0
    What details do you mean exactly?
    Trail breaking, weight management, etc?
     
  10. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Ratings:
    +155 / 0 / -0
    Is that the same from your earlier days as a racing engineer?
    Same car, same setup but one driver us faster than the other?
    Can't such secrets be revealed through telemetry?
    Btw sry for my poor English..
     
  11. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Ratings:
    +102 / 0 / -0
    TL_DR: They don't have more grip. They are using all of the grip avaiable more efficient.
    Yes of course. You can watch pedalwork and corner speeds of very good drivers and will find differences (Also this depends on if sim or RL racing, because simracing often requires a way more clean approach and aliens are clean af)
    Maybe also a look at the traction circle gives a hint on how much the driver approaches the limits.
    All of it. General questions already like "What does the car do, if i do that", "what can be used of the avaiable track, what comes after the corner?", "do i overpace it?", "do i underdrive it?".
    Pedal and steering work itself is on a generally high level to begin with from these kind of drivers.

    To become a faster driver, sometimes "brake later, throttle earlier" is already the answer, sometimes it's even "brake earlier, wait with throttle", sometimes it's good knowledge of tracks. It's all practice and some are faster with gaining on practice, than others. Aliens are also just human, but they overcame a border. :D I heard about eSports guys doing 1000s of laps of practice...it's mental.
    Happens all the time. The ultimate proof, that pace doesn't come from setups.

    Of course it makes you faster, when lowering aero on Monza, but generally setup is a way to make the car more driveable and able to push harder, you can't trick physics (besides exploiting quirks of game engines of course, but that's not what i mean).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  12. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Ratings:
    +155 / 0 / -0
    How can I understand the traction circle?
    For me a mystery
     
  13. fireballr18

    fireballr18 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2018
    Ratings:
    +75 / 0 / -0
    @memoNo1
    As already mentioned there are a lot of details where speed can be gained.

    Join the events in raceroom, especially the ones with fixed setup. Set laptimes and load ghosts of the quicker guys to see where time is lost. Watch the race line of them, keep in mind the circle of traction and practise, practise practise.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2019
    Ratings:
    +102 / 0 / -0
    Maybe a little helpful video:
     
  15. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen KW Studios Developer Beta tester

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2018
    Ratings:
    +562 / 0 / -0
    In my opinion (which could be wrong ofcourse), there is one thing that makes aliens aliens in simracing and that is the ability to learn extremely quickly. Especially when you start at a young age when your brain is still developing, I'm sure it will adapt to better connect the huge amount of feedback you get from simracing with the inputs you are giving.

    There is an absolute goldmine of information available in every corner you take while driving even in a sim: force feedback, sounds, visual movement, time delta etc. Combine that with your own inputs: When/how much did you brake? When/how much did you turn? When/how much did you get back on the throttle? Then on top of that you have even more variables such as tire temps, tire wear, track status (in some sims :p)

    I definitely believe the 'trick' is to instinctively take in all that information and condense it all down to one thing: 'What do I do in that corner next time to be even faster?'. I believe aliens are just extremely good at processing all that information intuitively, combined with a lot of experience, which gives you a better understanding of what to do in that same corner before you have even tried it, and a better understanding of what to change to your approach to try to squeeze even more out of it.

    Ofcourse it's more abstract than literally thinking 'okay i braked at 110m, easing off the brakes from 40m, while starting to turn in at 30m... etc.'. Though being more aware of what your inputs are in each corner and remembering how the car reacted to those inputs can definitely be the key to improving. I'm sure there's some genetics involved and a big advantage when starting at a young age, but I'm sure there's a lot to gain there for anyone with right amount and the right type of practice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Vale

    Vale Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Ratings:
    +278 / 0 / -0
    When doing fixed setup competitions, I am usually able to knock a couple of seconds of my best base time just by following the lines of the fastest drivers. Often they are right on the limit of a invalid lap and have pushed the envelope right to the edge. Sometimes they take a non standard line I would never have considered. I still end up at least a second if not two off the best time, having run plenty of laps and reaching my ability wall. It´s true that taking a break and coming back to it the next day sometimes works to get the final few tenths.

    The amount of steering lock and brake pressure are two other adjustments that can help. I try to run the minimum lock possilble to get round the tightest turn on a track as more makes the car slower.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. pierredietze

    pierredietze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Ratings:
    +232 / 0 / -0
    What I noticed for myself...
    I am a very experienced driver in real life. Driving cars and trucks since 30 years now, and I had 1000000's of miles under my wheels. From 40HP to 720HP I drove almost every brand for longer or shorter time. But I never drove a racing car. And thats a complete different story. You can't compare the amount of grip or the brakes of a road car with a racing car. So, I think I am good at learning a track, I am good on the brakes, I can use the track and know what a racing line is. But I am to slow through a corner, because my brain always tell me "that's to fast for this corner, slow down a little". Thats what my experience tells me from the road cars. And this results in another problem. I can't get the damn tires to work. No matter how "hard" I drive, I can barely make it to 68-70°, what is way to cold for the DTM20 cars. But the biggest problem is, I simply do not have the time to get deeper in some motec software or setups or whatever. Father and husband, need I say more...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Ratings:
    +155 / 0 / -0
    Yep. . same here..
    You are not alone :)
     
  19. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson KW Studios Developer

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2017
    Ratings:
    +1,948 / 0 / -0
    That's exactly why I spend 100s of hours data analysing all of our cars before we release them, so that the end user doesn't have to. It's also to ensure there is not bags of time to be found by tweaking the setup as they're released in an optimised state.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  20. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Ratings:
    +873 / 0 / -0
    One thing that I am often guilty of is driving all the cars in the same way.....eg same braking or downshift points.....which is clearly wrong, but it becomes habit. If you always do the same thing every lap you will always have the same laptime, you have to experiment and learn as you go, try later or earlier braking points, try a higher or lower gear through a corner and see how it affects your delta time. If it's not quicker then don't do it anymore. In a SIM we have the benefit of being able to run unlimited number of laps.....so use them to your advantage. In real life you may only get 10 laps in a car to get up to pace.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1