I still believe the best is for the fast guys to make there way past the slow guys, with the slower guys just sticking to their race line, this takes the guess work from both drivers completely out of the equation. If all ESR drivers followed that practice it's a no brainer for all concerned as to where the fast guys are going to go to make a clean safe pass. Cheers.
What if said slow guys have an unpredictable race line/don't drive race lines? Not to make this conversation drag on but i see a lot of weird lines at the back of the pack. Or unconventional lines as one back marker would proudly put it
Always reinforcing the need for that ESR entry level drivers school. or possibly two divisions like SKRO has suggested in the past.
I suggest 2 divisions. The hard part of being the person lapped is the fact that you never know what side the person is going to pass you on. I would prefer they wait until the straights to pass that way you can slow without causing a major pileup
I hear ya Chris, there will be a solution to the unconventional racing line from the inexperienced Rookies in the very near future. A rookie school is something I will be implementing asap, still putting it together, but im also in learning mode as far as my admin responsibilities go, so it may be a few weeks yet before I can kick it off This is the reason why I am so convinced that the rookies/backmarkers stick to the racing line, it simplifies overtaking for everyone, but if concensus says different thats cool too, it may take some experimentation to find the right solution. Cheers
As I've said in the past, I'm more than willing to help out anyone who wants it. I have been giving it a lot of thought on now training will go (@Insaneozzy PM me on this subject). How much you'll want my help is up to you. I'm not the fastest guy in the league but there are some tricks I use.Flat out, Red lining and tire shredding isn't one of them.
The 2 division would be a great idea as well. In the future we could see ESR overall champ series. With div1 in P1/2 and div2 in something like GTR2!
Very much agree with Chris Johnson. Sorry for the long post, but it's frustrating seeing some of the advice being given out. "Slower cars should stick to the racing line" - It can be very difficult to predict where the slower car is going to go when you're trying to over take - even when you think you're on the racing line. Often times a lapped car may be sticking to the racing line but out driving themselves because of nerves when getting passed. If I'm having to overtake around the outside, I'm going to be off line / out of the groove - which is fine. But it can become difficult when someone is running/pushing wide because they're trying to maintain pace or avoid getting lapped. Racing for position is honestly a lot easier.. You generally know the driving style of those around you because you're use to running with them and have had several laps to gauge their line/pace. With lapped cars, you don't have this luxury. You aren't always familiar with their braking points, racing line, or if they're on new or old tires. "Just wait to pass on the straights" - Always the preferred method, but passing on the straights requires being close enough in/coming off a corner and carrying enough speed. Some people are slower because they brake too early or perhaps too much. Some people just don't carry speed in the corner or apex at odd points whether it be early, late, or not at all. Sometimes you come up on lapped vehicles very quickly and there is a huge pace discrepancy. For me personally it can become difficult to quickly take all those factors into account just so you can be in the position to overtake on the next straight. I've also seen people recommend / decide the best action is "braking early" when a faster car is approaching. In my opinion that's probably the worst thing that can be done. Unless the faster car is already along side you or you make it very clear you're pulling way off line prior to braking, it's not going to end well. When I'm trying to over take, I'm expecting people to brake at the normal points, not 50m before the braking zone.. especially if you're still on line or in the middle of the track. Honestly the easiest thing / most appreciated move is to simply pull to the outside off the racing line. Sometimes this require you to slow your pace down a little bit - but you can often gain time / navigate through the field by following a leader since others will be moving out their way. This obviously requires being very vigilant and watching your mirrors. I know half my time is spent looking in my mirrors if anyone is within ~2 seconds of me. But some people seem to get tunnel vision and only focus on what's ahead. I understand that sticking to the racing line may seem like the most predictable course of action.. But my main point is that the approaching party has no idea if the lapped car realizes we're closing in / attempting to overtake. If you pull to the outside, it's very clear that you've acknowledged the approaching driver. The whole point of this league is for fun and competitive sim racing. This isn't meant to be a criticism, but rather to share my perspective on what I've seen or haven't seen with some of the lapped vehicles.
I see your points. however, most of what we are saying is as follows, a slow car that pulls to the side will be much more likly to lose control under pressure. ether by going off, or not being able to make the corner. it forces them to lose a lot of time because your faster then them. and it puts extra responsibility for them. if you can not pass someone who is slower then you, chances are ether you should not pass at that moment because its unsafe, or your not going to be able to pass them because they are faster then you. in ether case, you need to remember that to get a good overtake, you need a good balance of speed and position. from what your describing me, you have too much speed, and not enough position. I said it before, but it bears repeating. the defending cars position tells you which door you can take. as the attacking driver, its your job to not hit them, and avoid contact to the best of your abilities. if they start breaking 50 meters before the breaking point (which is perfectly valid for a wide set of reasons, such as cooked tires, or checking up do to a wreck they see in front of them) then you need to as the attacking driver respond and slow down and move away from them so contact does not happen. If your having to deal with a driver who lacked car control and is going all over the place, its not in your best interest to try and pass in a difficult cornering section. instead wait for them to get stabilized on the straits or a less difficult section before you go for the pass. again, its your responsibility as the attacking driver to avoid contact. To be honest, I dont feel like there is as much of a car control problem as people try and make it out to be. however, we can always require minimum car control requirements if people want it that badly.
Part of racing is responsibility. There really isn't a lot of time that will be lost by simply moving to the outside line and allowing the faster car to the inside. After the they pass that lapped car, the next lapped car is going to be doing the same thing. This doesn't require literally pulling to the side / sawing at the wheel. Rather than keep a tight turning radius, you just swing a little bit wider than normal. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel my point was missed. If you're being lapped by a lead car, you are not defending, you are traffic. I mean this in the most sincere way possible and not as an insult.. But if you're a vehicle being lapped during a 15-45 minute race and have the mind set of having to defend your position, that's a bit concerning. Again, if you're lapping a vehicle, you're not attacking, but rather navigating through traffic. When you're attacking for position, it's usually over several laps. So the front driver is aware that you're there and that you're eventually looking to pass. If you're lapping a vehicle, you've already managed to out pace them by 60-120+ seconds and you're most likely coming up on the lapped vehicle quickly. It's difficult to know whether they realize your behind them / looking to overtake or if they're completely unaware. I agree, I think just about everyone has good enough car control to change lines / be dynamic if needed. In the real world, lapped traffic always moves to the outside if a faster car is clearly trying to get by. There are plenty of us who are willing to help teach racecraft and help others improve. But it's difficult to help if someone thinks a lead car has to "attack" lapped traffic in order to get by, rather than have the lapped car leave the door open on the inside.
its clear your missing my points. I am of course using real world examples, (namly isma and wec) to base my opinions off. but no driver ever should just pull off the racing line. any driver who wants to take a position is an attacking driver, any driver who is being attacked is a defending driver. these are common terms. I clearly think you are not using the correct language to describe what your saying, and there is one or two points that you clearly miss. Point one. all drivers regardless of pace equally share the track, just because your faster does not give you the right to take dangerous attacks vs slower drivers. keep in mind that while they might be a lap down, the slower drivers do have their own battles for position which are just as valid as the ones up front. Point two. You always pass the slower cars the same way you pass the faster cars, the difference is that the slower cars will often give you more space and not race you as hard to allow the pass to happen faster. the laws of physics don't change when racing slower cars or slower classes, nether does the laws of passing. Point three, The idea that you would pull off the racing line to let a faster car through is both really slow for the car being passed, and really dangerous as it puts them in low grip and tighter sections of the track. In mc racing, a slower car usually would just leave the inside door open on corner entry and break sooner, to allow the faster cars by, this is not the same as just pulling off, its not taking them off the racing line, its just allowing the faster cars to get to the door sooner, and making sure its wide enough for them to get though it fast. sometimes however, either do to internal battling, or do to how tight a section of track is, slower cars want the inside line, and or need more space though a set of corners. as such, they tell you by placing themselfs near the middle, your free to pull along the outside to get a better late entry and faster exit to help pass them at the end of the corner and into the next strait, but you need to respect their need for some track space. Point four. You also forget that a faster car can end up behind you do to a race incident or from pit strats, they have just as much right to battle for position as any other lapped car, and any car on your current lap. if a slower car finds more pace, then they are allowed to use that pace to defend vs you, or even get a lap back off you. they are racing for positions just as much as you are so to deny them that right is just being a jerk. of course if they have nothing to gain, then they likely should not force the problem. but as this is racing, they have just as much right to race as you do. So in short. Everyone has the right to race, and everyone has the right to the track space.
I can't believe people are discussing "the best way to be lapped". No gents, in racing people have to learn how to overtake and how to pass a lapped car. The only rule for the slow car is: stick to your line, don't make strange moves and yes, if possible, facilitate the fast car passing once the overtake is being made (by lifting a little when the other car started to pass for example).
This is way too silly and contentious for a fun league of fake race cars. When did things suddenly get so serious around here?
I suppose I should have been more clear. If a lapped car is vastly off the pace i.e. a Prototype vs. GT car, they generally don't go out of their way to "battle" for position. The whole point of my original post was to suggest keeping an eye on your rear view mirror and to try being predictable when racing. I know I've had several encounters where I was right behind a lapped vehicle and was patient over multiple corners / trying not to "startle" them.. only to make a move and realize they never checked their mirror / didn't know they had a vehicle behind them. It's suppose to be fun, but no one wants to be in a position where you get tangled up because people aren't aware of their surroundings. Honestly, I think that applies whether it's lapped traffic or a battle for position. But what do I know? I'm being told that you can be in 24th and fighting for position with 1st place.
I 100% agree with all of this. Making a slow driver move off the line for the faster driver to breeze by is down right selfish and idiotic. We need to allow the slower cars to keep the racing line (outside line on corner entry) and faster cars overtake them normally. This normally results in the faster car taking the inside line of the corner and the slower car taking a wide apex. If it's a multi corner complex BOTH drivers HAVE to stay in their lane. e.g. don't cross over left of the track to the right the track until the car is passed. Yes, both cars will be slower but they will know where the other car will and will not be. It should be common sense, but now days common sense is not common at all. If the slower driver takes the inside line (off the racing line on corner entry) then they will more than likely out brake themselves from less grip/bad line, under-steer into the faster car and ruin both races.
Jesus, this is getting out of hand. Insulting people over a disagreement is not cool in my book. Edit: I guess props for editing it out at least...
Please suspend any kind of comments. I'll have a reply for the topic as soon as possible (Having dinner with family at the moment)
So... hello everyone! The last posts were rather interesting and brought up a very important part regarding racing rules and etiquette. Before even starting with my post let me clear out one thing: ESR is about having fun and is not by any mean a place where regulations will ever take priority over the enjoyment of a good race among a group of friends. Of course we're not talking about getting on track and do as we please. Rules are needed. And we have them! Even if in a really mild way, they're here already and they served us well so far. We are, as expected in a growing group, encountering situations that require our attention and a solution. We are learning as we go thus that might require that we'll have to implement additional regulations but we need to be careful not to step into that overly serious/convoluted/complicated type of environment which was basically what made me run away in first place and then trying to create a racing community more friendly and welcoming. In fact, when I look at ourselves, I can't see anything but a small group of aficionados that are actually growing (slowly slowly) with new entries from time to time. And everyone is welcomed of course! From rookies to aliens, as long as he/she respects everyone else and has an open mind and tolerant behavior. I'm really happy about this group cause we always had a way to fix things, even tense situations, with reason, objective approach and a polite way to express the arguments. Situations like these will surely happen again in the future, I'm sure of it. But as long as we analyze them with the right pov (or FOV trolololol) we'll continue to race in a good environment and with a good mood. With that said, regarding the whole discussion about passing slow/lapped cars I have to say that the best, quickest, easiest, less painful solution is: Seriously, we all know our limits and we all know if the driver behind us has a better pace/better skill. It's called awareness and we should put it into practice by reading the situations in which we are. I'm not asking to drop the ball right away: noone wants that and it's not even fun, but if you're struggling to maintain your position then you have to consider about making room and let the car(s) pass: that's for the good not only of your race but for theirs as well. Lapped cars on the other hand, should always concede by keeping their line and facilitate the overtake. That doesn't mean tho that they need to obliterate themselves when seeing the leaders approaching. Fast drivers have to be careful too and take their chance to pass safely and encountering traffic is part of the game. it's a challenge for them too. This is it! Really! No need to spend too much of our time reading long posts about rules and such. We need short, brief, easy to understand regulations that can put us on the track without being nervous or afraid of screwing up cause we didn't follow them L E T T E R B Y L E T T E R. We're not professional drivers (maybe someone is!) and this is a game. Game should be just about fun, and even if we need rules to enjoy what we do, I don't want you guys to spend time learning more than it's required to get on your car and race with the other chaps. Racing with others btw it's the quickest way to learn and perfection your racing awarness. So on this subject yes, we're gonna setup a series of driving school classes for those who care and want to learn more about tracks/racing in general (going two wide, trajectories, attack and defending bla bla bla...), setups etc... This should provide tools and knowledge to everyone in order to understand how to race with the right etiquette and limit mistakes and or unpleasant situations. Sorry again for the long post and thanks for having made it till the end of it! NOW! I need my affogato Cheers folks!