AI Aggression

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rhino_WJB, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    I didn't explain adaptive AI in all its complexity, which is my fault really.

    It works like I described above, it adapts to your level of performance, but that doesn't mean that there won't be challenge. Quite on the contrary you will always have challenge, but a more manageable one that doesn't overwhelm you.
    And that's because there is a build in spread.
    Let's say your current average best time around a track is 90 seconds/lap. The adaptive AI wil adapt to that but that doesn't mean they will all match your average speed. Some AI drivers will be slightly slower than you while others will be slightly faster. Usually the spread is around +/- 0.5 seconds, so you will always find some AI that is slightly faster than you that you can chase and try to overtake. So in our example some AI drivers will be able to do a lap in 90.6 seconds while others will be beat you and make it in 89.5 seconds.
    What's beautiful about this system is that as soon as you get better and start beating those AI that are slightly faster, they will gain on you once again cause they will still adapt to your pace.
    Theoretically you would be able to get ever faster and faster and you will always have competition that doesn't outrun you by seconds but which also won't be miles behind you.

    For me this is way more rewarding and close to real life racing, cause you never chase the ultimate victory after which you can sit back and say, that's it, I've done it, I've beaten the game.
    It's about always striving to get better, not to reach a pre-set goal and be complacent about having reached that achievement.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  2. GregoryLeo

    GregoryLeo Well-Known Member

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    When I first started playing gtr2 a few years ago. When ever I played one of the championships. As got better with what ever car I was using. I was constantly having to go into the player file and turn up the strength of the AI,s so the race stayed challenging. Like you, I'd rather be in a heated battle for last place than leading by 20 or 30 seconds and gaining. That's boring. So the beauty of the adaptive ai for me is, as I get faster so do they. Right now in the championship series I've constructed I'm in 3rd place because the ai are so well tuned I can't afford any mistakes or I end up lost in the pack battling for position. And even when I do get into p1 they are right behind me the whole time. It's not easy. The faster I get, the faster they get. That's why everyone keeps telling you to spend some time in the game. Try focussing on one car for at least a week. And see what happens.
     
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  3. Rik Fast

    Rik Fast Well-Known Member

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    Not much different as in real life, if you play a sport you will be assigned to a competition that is approximately your skill level. If you win every game you get promoted to a higher level to compete against tougher opponents and so on. This is how adaptive AI works your skill level will fuel the skill level of your AI opponents.

    How frustrating would it be if the AI took off by the start and you never saw them back (maybe to lap you). This is not motivating to do better but more demotivating you.

    But you can always set a fixed AI level en bypass the AI adaptation all together (fixed level of AI) to find a balance with your own pace. And build it up higher and higher.
     
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  4. Rhino_WJB

    Rhino_WJB Member

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    That's exactly as it was for me in the early days of my interest in sim racing. It was not demotivating in the slightest, it taught me I had a lot to learn, and through perseverance, learning and application, I finally started to show improvement and became competitive.

    Bringing it back to real life, I know for certain if I jumped in a GT3 car at Silverstone against an experienced grid, in real life, I would be blown away. No question. I would very likely fear the car, be unable to interpret the car's motion and performance to my advantage, but I guarantee you after enough experience (of 10 years or so, as in sim racing), I would be much more competent, maybe even competitive.

    I accept there is a difference of opinion on this matter, and I'm certainly not trying to be stubborn, I just haven't heard any argument yet that has persuaded me an adaptive AI is better than a fixed (real world) paced AI. For some people it clearly works and I'm not trying to persuade anyone away from that: if it works for you, fine, it just doesn't fit with what I expect from a simulation (i.e. a grid with fixed talent, as in real life).

    That aside, this doesn't address why the AI is PCars levels of stupid occasionally and I only mention it here as R3E is a favourite title of mine. I don't bother bleating on the PCars forums about how ridiculous the AI are, nor about how I left the game on PS4 on learning the AI use a different physics set to Player 1, because I could not care less about PCars, it is riddled with bugs and does nothing for me. I want to see R3E improve, and I'm encouraged to read in several posts here that the AI is constantly being worked on and improved. There will come a time however that I abandon this title too, if say 6 months from now I'm still being indiscriminately rammed by AI or forever watching them crash in to each other and causing total carnage. Is really is that bad, sometimes.
     
  5. Rik Fast

    Rik Fast Well-Known Member

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    I believe you're in the wrong with that statement.;)
    In reallife racesports there is like in any other sport different skill levels, therefore there are classes (competition levels) invented. If you're a lesser driving god you compete in a lower class then if you're an alien. There are amateur drivers, gentlemen drivers and pro drivers all with different skill levels.

    The most of us drive a sim to have fun with a race-car that is close to what a real vroomm vroomm :D would be, but not everyone has the time to train or the talent to be as fast as the top drivers. So you can have fun on any skill level, and there comes adaptive AI into play. Personally i think that most of us wanna have a fight to the front :mad: and some defense to the back:oops:. A Sim is more about the car/track combination as close to real life plus opponents to match your pace.

    In iRacing you will be seated in the split of your pace, you never will be placed in a top split if you're not fast or skilled enough. (this with competition with multiple split entries).

    AI can always be improved, that's for sure. :rolleyes: But if you respect the AI you sure will get respect back :rolleyes:
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  6. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    The same applies vice versa. Again, you don't have to use adaptive AI.

    And "fixed talent"? So you assume every real life driver, unlike us, has exactly the same skill on every track and he doesn't learn? He comes to a track and leaves with the exact same level of skill and experience, albeit having driven hundreds of laps over the course of a few days?
     
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  7. fl0wf1r3

    fl0wf1r3 Well-Known Member

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    wow, this post is from last year, it still happens :( frustrating with AI
     
  8. Maddog

    Maddog Active Member

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    Yep, it still happens.....Sector3 please fix it.....
     
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  9. Rhino_WJB

    Rhino_WJB Member

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    AI remains a problem for me too, but not to the same extent. I'm generally running 105-110% on any given car/track combination, and am able to at least complete races. Before, AI was forcing retirements far too regularly.

    There is one issue though that is seemingly consistent, and that is AI awareness. Too frequently, the AI turns in when another car (occasionally mine), is on the inside line approaching a corner. I've been monitoring replays where I get wiped by AI, and often I see them just turn in, irrespective of whether another car has the line. Example would be Brands, T1. Decent run down the straight, side by side approaching the braking point. I have the inside line, then get wrecked following contact with AI. Check the replay: AI just turns in, like I'm not even there. Literally nothing Player 1 can do at this point, besides concede every corner to AI, then of course we are not racing.

    We have seen improvements with AI over this continuous development of R3E, no question. However, there is always room for improvement, and it's with this in mind I offer my thoughts and experiences: not to bash R3E, but to hopefully raise a few pointers that might be helpful in R3E's development.
     
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  10. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no to that one.
    Yes, the AI will defend any corner vigorously, and probably a little harder than it should.
    It can be avoided though, and overtaking using the inside line is certainly feasible.
    But you have to be absolutely sure that you're completely alongside the AI when you enter the corner.
    If you only have your front wheels along his rears, he'll take that racing-line like his life depended on it.
    Also note that if you're alongside him on the straight, and then brake sooner than he does, suddenly you're no longer alongside on corner-entry, and he'll cut you off.
    One weird side-effect of this is that dive-bombing actually becomes a viable tactic. :D
    If you can brake as late as possible, and sneak up on his side just before he starts to turn, he'll swerve to avoid you.

    Exactly why this is, I couldn't tell you.
    My best guess is that it has something to do with the AI calculating distances from a fixed center-point instead of the entire collision-box that constitutes the car, but a guess is all that it is.
    At any rate, IMO the biggest problem with the AI isn't actually with the AI but the collision-physics.
    If those got fixed we'd be able to live with a bit of rubbing here and there.

    But the best advice for racing the AI is the same as racing on public servers:
    "Until proven otherwise, assume everyone else is a moron with the driving-skills of a half-blind demented badger."
     
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  11. DaniloE31

    DaniloE31 Well-Known Member

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    Not a selling point at all... :confused:
     
  12. Rhino_WJB

    Rhino_WJB Member

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    Thanks for the pointers on racing AI. Thinking about it, I'm probably guilty of racing to how they "should" behave, rather than how they "do" behave.

    There is also no doubt that collision physics needs addressing. I've had occasions where light contact has resulted in bouncing off an opponent, almost like a ping-pong ball.
     
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  13. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    For what?
    Racing the AI or racing open servers? :D
     
  14. Nano 10

    Nano 10 Member

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    Almost three years and follows the same problem. I hope it is fixed with the BIG patch.
     
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  15. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    While this topic has been bumped i'll chip in with my 2 cents worth....

    I've found the AI to be generally OK, I've been bumped a few times but nothing ridiculous. I've been running mostly with fixed AI between 98-105 ish depending on how well I know the track. Would I better to switch to adaptive AI at this point and If I do is it better to delete the AI file and start with a clean slate as it were?
     
  16. Rhino_WJB

    Rhino_WJB Member

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    RaceRoom AI has indeed been gradually improving, thankfully. Their behaviour is now generally more believable in my opinion and I tend to see much less of the "unaware" driving that was initially so frustrating. On the whole, I would say S3 have made incremental but important AI improvements over time, and I'm pleased to say I remain very fond of the sim.
     
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  17. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    @Robert Holm is constantly (and tirelessly) working on the AI, so there's more improvements to come in the future.
    The answer to this must always be... it depends. ;) But in general, using Adaptive AI has some perks only it can provide, once the AI has been trained well. Whatever you do tho, as long as there are no obvious bugs (like the AI being super slow or super quick or not adapting after several race sessions) you should always keep your aiadaptation file, the data that's already in there is too valuable to just throw out the window (provided you've done more or less constistent laps in race sessions). Not sure how much you already know about the workings of AAI, but it does also gather data when you're using a fixed AI level, but it only fetches valid lap times from race sessions, so you should try to be as consistent as you can in those.

    If you're into reading, here's a thread that might interest ya: https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/the-new-adaptive-ai.5013
    The findings from that thread (@CheerfullyInsane took the lions share here) lead to the creation of this AI Primer tool (props go to @pixeljetstream ): https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/adaptive-ai-primer-database-tool.5632/ , which can help you minimise the time needed to get a well trained AAI file.
     
  18. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Thanks for the reply. Ok so basically I should be looking to do single races rather than practice sessions? I will have a look through the thread you linked, I did briefly look at AI primerbbutbi didn't fully understand it to be honest
     
  19. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    Yes, only valid lap times (i.e. no cuts) done during a race session are fetched by the adaptation file. So you can go out and do whatever during practice and quali sessions, but in a race session you should try to avoid inconsistent laps.

    Very simply put, the file gathers your lap times and creates averages, which it then compares to the AI's averages and adapts their performance to get closer to yours. But it does so in a multi-step process, so it won't just take your average from one race and apply that to the AI (cause that would mean one not so good race could screw it up). So if you just use normally, it takes a few race sessions before they are close to your performance. And because the adaptation is done on a class-track basis, you'd have to do so for each class on all the tracks you want to use them on (in a championship f.e.). This is where the Primer tool comes in, cause it will allow you to inject some data into your adaptation file and shorten the time you need to invest to get a properly trained AAI for a decent number of classes on a decent number of tracks.

    The other thread is quite long by now, but I think the most interesting bits about the basics are on pages 5 -15. @CheerfullyInsane also made some videos in which he explains his findings that should also be in that thread.

    Hope this helps, but if there's more questions just shot and I'm sure sb will be able to help.
     
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  20. Nano 10

    Nano 10 Member

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    The order of priority to improve the AI should be:

    1) normal braking (not like now that they are suddenly very early or very late)
    2) careful not to crash from behind
    3) improve the physics of the player's car, it seems that he has no weight with each touch and immediately starts spinning