Problem Ai feedback

Discussion in 'Community Support' started by Nico Kunze, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Not neccessarily a problem, just a bit of feedback. Been doing a couple multiclass races (10 dtm 2020, 10 gt3) at 105 strength at motegi driving in the dtm class and have found the ai to be very slow going into turn 1 and in turn 7. They also have a tendency to run wide between 3 and 4 and they almost lose the car out of turn 10 a little more often than id find realistic but those two are only minor issues. The first two are a bigger issue and make racing in a pack rather difficult as you either rear end somebody or you cant carry your normal speed and end up being down on lap time compared to the ai. Would be great if somebody could look into these and maybe tweak a thing or two :)
    (Wanted to upload a video as well but for some reason it seems that i no longer am able to upload to youtube from my phone)
     

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  2. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Expanding the thread to include other track(s). Now took the same 10 dtm 2020 and 10 gt3 over to suzuka at 112 strength and found the dtm ai to be very unbalanced although this one seems more like the typical fast corners vs slow corners so it might be harder to fix.
    Through the esses (turns 3-7) theyre way faster than i am but into turns 9, 11 (this one couldve been down to traffic, would have to test more) and 16 theyre incredibly slow. They also seem to carry a fair bit less speed through turn 8 than i do
     

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  3. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    Nice very useful feedback thank you @Nico Kunze.
    To clarify, do you mean that the DTM cars and the GT3 cars are showing exactly the same behaviour in the areas you describe? Or is one series' AI having more issues than the other?
     
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  4. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Im only talking about the dtm ai but thought just to be sure id add that i use them in a multiclass scenario (wouldnt expect that to make a difference but who knows :D). Cant really comment on the gt3 ai speed when sitting in a much faster car
     
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  5. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Now changing the thread to general ai feedback :D
    Did a couple gt3 races around bathurst today at 110 and 112 strength with 19 ai cars. I find the ai brake very early on a number of corners, mainly t1, 2, 18, 21, 23. Especially into t21 theyre extremely early leading to dangerous situations. Dont know if theyd do it in completely free air or only if there are other cars somewhat near as i only experienced the latter situation during my races
     

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  6. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

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    The AI struggles very hard with the FR X-17 in Portimao between 110-120 AI strength. They tend to lose control over their car in the Samsung corner.
     
  7. Skidmark

    Skidmark Well-Known Member

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    I had the same experience with AI at 101 / FRX17 at Portimao. Starting at 20th, I won the race having passed around 15 cars when they lost control in front of me. My best lap was 18th fastest but it was an easy win (and not much fun sadly as there were dozens of yellow flags). Not a complaint - just feedback.

    Given it's a free (and therefore introductory / first impression) track - it probably needs some attention.
     
  8. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson No specific corners this time but i ran the gte porsche around brno today and found the ai to be extremely quick. At 110 strength they were already up to 3 seconds quicker than the top leaderboard time (set by denis gicquel whos not exactly slow ;D). Probably just down to the nature of the track but maybe its possible to just slow them down overall for a certain track. If thats possible i think it should be done, as things are at the moment running brno in a fixed ai level championship would be rather pointless (at least in gte, havent checked other classes)
     
  9. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    Brno has no hard breaking zones where the AI is worse than the human driver. Brno only has such low-mid speed corners, where the AI simply hits entry points and apexes more consistent than human drivers (or at least me...). And they somehow have better grip at those corners. Brno is my worst track as well even though it is a fun track with lots of memories back to GTR/GTR2 times
     
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  10. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson this time a general ai speed complaint about the daytona road course. I know its probably an unfortunate combination of mainly slow corners plus endless straights where they run way too much downforce but maybe theres still something that can be done. Just had a field of like 12 daytona prototypes run a 10 minute quali session at ai level 120 and they were still at least 2 seconds slower than what id want them to be for me to actually start a race against them when using my setup. If i were to run the default setup their speed might be fine as it is but the car drives so differently then that its not really an enjoyable combo for me anymore
     
  11. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    P2 update incoming soon, hold your horses ;)
     
  12. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i know about that ;)
    But i dont know how much those changes affect ai performance and so on but i guess ill have to wait to find that out myself then :D
     
  13. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Well i didnt expect it to be that soon and tbh i wouldve preferred for it to wait another week. Changing the p2 physics (and reducing the grip around daytona) while theres still a competition going on with that exact combo and with a big race happening with it on saturday is far from ideal. Had i known about the update coming this early i couldve saved myself a substantial amount of setup work or at least put in a lap in the competition..
    But its too late now anyways so whatever but maybe something to keep in mind for future updates
     
  14. iceman053

    iceman053 New Member

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    Laguna Seca has an major ai bug. Just over the hill after the start finish line, ALL ai cars (every car/class) stops and moves like there is a tiny chicane. You can see it you turn the ideal racing line on. Tested on gt1, gt2, gt3, gt4, p1, p2, adac, dtm, gto, tc, and all wtcc cars.
     
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  15. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Did a couple of multiclass races (40 minutes each, ai at 114 and 116, mandatory pit stop) driving the daytona prototype at daytona road course today against 60 ai (15 daytona prototypes, 10 aquilas and 35 gt3) and noticed a few things. The big main thing is how much time the ai lose when overtaking packs of slower class cars. Might be a general issue on all tracks but i feel like the banked parts were especially problematic. Either way it makes it pretty difficult to have a race where youre at a similar pace to the ai throughout the whole race. In free air or when occasionally overtaking single cars the ai and i had pretty much the same pace (although with the ai at 116 their fastest laps were getting a little too quick but as long as its just single laps it still evens out so no problem) but once major traffic hit they were a lot slower.
    Ill attach two videos showing the most extreme examples. The first video is showing an ai at 114. When the video starts im roughly 2 seconds ahead of that ai (as i had been for the last 10 minutes give or take half a second), when the video ends im 9 seconds ahead. Thats 7 seconds within a lap and a half. It seems the ai generally isnt very decisive with their moves and even brakes on the banked parts which really shouldnt be something that happens (unless theres a huge pack of different classes of course). Also seems that the ai was riding the wall for a bit (at least in this case, havent checked if its something that happens regularly). On the approach to the bus stop chicane this ai started lifting/braking almost 500 metres before the normal braking point and it stayed behind the two slower cars for that whole stretch even though there was plenty of space to overtake.

    Now onto the second video. That shows me against the ai at 116 just to give a comparison from my perspective. I start the video in 8th place and about 5 seconds behind first place. Around one and a half laps later im in the lead of the race (and because of the second wave of traffic ended up officially winning the race by 30 seconds. I even purposely chose not to pit to avoid traffic and instead made my way through all the gt3s and only then pitted in an attempt to keep the fight against the other dp's alive but even that wasnt enough :D).

    Sorry for the stuttering, recording with the windows game bar thing seems to completely kill any performance but its all i know how to use :D

    Now onto the smaller things. In the race results screen i found out that the ai all switched from soft to hard tires during the pit stop even though the softs can easily do a 20 minute stint (in fact the only reason i enabled the mandatory pit stop was so that i could just run softs and not have to worry about tire choice). The other thing i noticed is that the gaps at the end of the race make a weird jump. Say i cross the line with a 20 second lead as per the position bar, on the results screen the gap will be closer to 30 seconds. Dont know what happens there but it does seem rather weird (wasnt a one off either, noticed this for my last 3 races i did against the ai).

    Well that should be about it, sorry for the slightly long post :D
     
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  16. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    It's a bummer that the AI in Raceroom behaves pretty life-like but sometimes behave very unrealistically. Not just accidents, but even pacing issues - these can be noticed on every single lap. Hard to enjoy AI races with all these immersion braking moments.

    What I'm interested to know is - what's the best way to report AI issues like that? As in, most useful to help the devs pinpoint and fix the issue. Is it enough to simply describe what I saw or is there something else I can do? Do some further testing and what kind?

    Like, yesterday I did two short races (6 laps) in GT3 at Most, rolling start. In both races the AI had a sort of pile up before the first chicane - not on the first lap, but like lap 2 or 3. Two cars had a collision and all the cars behind them slowed down significantly, almost to a stop, while there was still enough space to get through.
     
  17. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Did a couple races in the daytona prototypes at watkins glen gp with inner loop yesterday around 102 ai strength and the ai seemed to struggle through the inner loop section (so the double chicane part). First off they brake pretty early but then they quite often seem to get a lot of oversteer after the first left resulting in regular big sideways moments and probably like 5 spins over a 30 minute race with 15 ai cars
     
  18. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    There are some parts at some Tracks, where the AI struggles. Mainly where fast weight transfer happens. So faster chicanes like inner loop at the Glen, 1st chicane at Imola, chicane at new Indy road course etc .. Also breaking zones, where you come out of a mid/fast corner and you need the car straighten up before stepping on the breaks like portimao between T6 and T7. But those sections are simply hard to drive and If the AI struggles there, I think it is OK. But I agree that it happens slightly too often. What makes these spins even worse is that the following AI's slow down too much, but that is a different issue with (maybe) waypoints around a blocked Road.
     
  19. Henrik Fredborg

    Henrik Fredborg New Member

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    Brno is really unbalanced with AI. Using GT3 at 103 AI level I am 0.6 faster in sector 1. Sector 2 the AI is 0,8 seconds faster and about even in sector 3 although they have really good acceleration out of some of the slow corners such as the last turn. Maybe I just need to practice more but having raced at least 10 races on this track now I always see the same pattern in different cars. Makes it really difficult to have close racing with the AI and kills the fun. Hope this can be improved.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
  20. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Back with another one :D
    Just did a 40 minute race against 35 ai (8 in the r18, 10 p2s and 17 gtr2s) at 116 strength with a mandatory pitstop around interlagos. I myself in an r18 as well, the ai observations mainly concerning the 8 ai r18s.
    1) of the 8 ai one was an early dnf, one was an outlier and the rest had a best race lap of 1:20.6-1:21.0, i had a 1:20.7 so on pure lap time pretty much a perfect ai speed. However it was quite common for me to gain up to 1 second through turns 1-3 and then lose that somewhere in the middle of the lap, presumably the tight corners of 8-10 and a bit more in turn 12. Some of what i lose may be due to less than optimal driving in those tight corners, in part caused by just not seeing where im going in the r18 :D, but i definitely shouldnt be gaining those huge amounts through the senna s.
    2) all 35 ai switched from soft tires to hards at the pitstop which was completely unneccessary (once again the only reason for the mandatory pitstop was so that i could just run softs while still not having to worry about tire management :D)
    3) mainly noticed on the r18 ai but might apply to others as well, they have a tendency to spin in turns 6 and 8, far more often than id consider realistic
    4) and generally the ai still lose way too much time getting past slower class cars. Unfortunately didnt notice any specific areas where they struggled but ultimately i won by 30 seconds despite serving a drive through penalty and despite single lap pace being spot on

    On a side note, did some gt3/multiclass sessions on the 24h nordschleife layout a couple weeks ago and noticed a similar pace discrepancy as mentioned in 1) where the gt3 ai were quite slow in sector 1 (~4 seconds slower than me) but were quite a bit faster than me in the latter parts of the lap ultimately resulting in similar lap times. Not sure about ai strength on that one anymore tho, probably somewhere between 110 and 115
     

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