AI Qualifying

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by IGEM, Nov 16, 2021.

  1. IGEM

    IGEM New Member

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    I would be interested to know if any of you guys have noticed (and been very annoyed by) something that has changed since the many updates and changes that have happened this year. I have noticed this mostly in FR X-17 and GT3 but in other classes too when racing the AI. I can be first or second or third in free practice, set the same time if not better in qualifying and be beaten by almost the whole field and end up at the back of the grid!! The AI can be over two seconds quicker than they were in free practice, coming from way down in the timesheet to take pole. In the race my pace is back up to being fastest or at least to being competitive but my starting position has completely ruined the race. I know there will be some differences in free practice/qualifying/race pace but this seems way out of proportion. It would seem that something really needs to be rejigged. What do you think?
     
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  2. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    Once the AI has free road they run monster times. In pack they are significantly slower. After about 3 laps, when they run in small packs, then they are fine but as soon as one is driving alone... 2 seconds fast on a 2 mins laptime.
    Abstract thinking: you run at 100% AI, which is the Level, where your fastest lap is about 7th to 13th fastest, and start mid pack maybe 10th out of 20.
    First 1-2 laps you can quite easy gain spots. So AI lap level is abstract at maybe 95%. After about 2-3 laps AI comes to 98-99%. Maybe one AI has made a mistake and is way behind. Guess who has the next fastest lap....

    So you have some options. Make field smaller, less packed racing. AI not so slow in first 3 laps.

    So my setup. 7 AIs, 2 short 10 minutes races, reversed grid, random starting position for Race 1. Point scoring system for Championship. 7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0.

    With few AI you have then after about 1 lap on their real pace.

    When I raced bigger grid with qualy, my races looked like: qual 15th or worth. After 3 laps I was often top 5. Then I was the road block. When AI overtook me, they disappeard.

    When AI Level was top easy, I qualified top 5 overtook the others after few corners and won by ages.

    My experiences so far. Hope that helps
     
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  3. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    I personally do not notice what you describe, but AI certainly has a number of flaws which makes their pace vary in a vastly different way than how real people perform.

    Since they do have problems running in pack, I would try testing race events against only a few AIs, like one or two or three, and see if anything changes or it all stays the same.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  4. Ron Watmore

    Ron Watmore Member

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    I am having the same situation! Is the AI strength different for every track? I can win at some tracks at AI 102-103 but then others towards the end of a 20 car line up. is this normal racing? Thanks
     
  5. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin Moderator Beta tester

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    Are you equally good across all tracks , i know im not , im not saying that tgere is no Ai fluctuation , but it is something to consider

    Andi
     
  6. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    Yup, it's not uncommon.
     
  7. Ron Watmore

    Ron Watmore Member

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    No not all tracks. I figured it was mostly that. Actually makes it very challenging. Love it. Thanks
     
  8. stlutz

    stlutz Member

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    Actually, out of curiosity are there car classes with more/less natural variation? With touring and GT cars I generally don't have a lot of variation--for touring cars I'll reduce my normal level by 1 point on faster tracks with fewer hard braking zones and vice versa for small, tight tracks). With the F3 cars, the AI levels I end up choosing vary a lot. Didn't know if that reflects an inconsistency on my part or that the F3 AI are less tuned with the physics/tire model being recently upgraded.
     
  9. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    I have the Same "issue". I would say that AI is still better at faster corners and slower at high braking zones especially at cars with abs. So most of the difference in AI level comes from the track layout. I'm currently testing dtm92 at 102%AI almost all tracks and note down at which track I'm faster/equal/slower than AI. I can post the current results (having done about 10 tracks out of 40+) later.
    What I can say from what I remember. Brno has no hard braking zones but plenty of faster corners. So I'm slower than AI at 102%. Yesterday at Lausitzring DTM version, I was within top 3 fastest lap times and won both races.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  10. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    So here are my results:
    1: too easy
    2: front
    3: middle
    4: back
    5: too difficult

    DTM92 102% 2x10 mins, 7 AI (always the same AI drivers), random starting position, reversed grid
    Suzuka 3-4
    Portimao 2-3 (slightly easier than Suzuka)
    Sonoma (WTCC) 3
    Most 2 (a little bit faster than the tracks before but not as fast as expected)
    Zolder 1-2 (a little bit easier than Most))
    Zuhai 2
    Glen 3
    Bilster chicane 3-4
    Brands 2-3
    Brno 4-5
    Chang 3-4
    Bathurst 3
    Zandvoort 1-2
    Brands Indy 2
    Lausitz 2
    Dubai 1-2

    From my remembering:
    Suzuka: Way slower in spoon corner, esses are tricky and last two corners of the esses I'm quite slower.
    Faster in T1 and 2 and much faster in breaking before final chicane.

    Portimao: I always gain in sector 1 and lose a lot in final 2 corners.

    Sonoma: I cannot remember. Just fast at chicane and quite slower in T1 and 2.

    Most (from my remebering I was always too fast there but not at DTM92). Just much faster in sector1 and lose ground infinal 2 corners

    Zolder:
    4 heavy breaking zones, so you know why the track is slightly too easy.

    Zuhai: On and off track, so I'm fast in comparance to AI

    Glen: Only gain at busstop and maybe T1, rest I'm slightly slower

    Brands GP: Way faster in sector 1. Paddockhill bend the AI is very slow and druids as well. At the 3 fast right handers AI is slightly faster.

    Bathurst: I was faster as expected. Only about 1 seconds off the leader when I started in P2: I loose on the mointain and gain in the hard breaking zones.

    Brno: little bit as Glen. No heavy breaking zomes and many of those longer 2-3rd gear corners. I'm slower all the way around.

    Chang: I only gain at T2 and last vorner, rest I'm slower quite significantly

    Zandvoort: I do not gain as much at T1 than at other hairpins at other tracks. I gain a lot at chicane and for some strange reason DTM92 AI is slow at the last two corners.

    Brands Indy: I'm too fast in sector 1. At the rest I'm slower but not enough for AI to take over.

    Lausitz: Of course T1 I'm way fatser and at breaking zone at the back straight. From there on I loose time cause of those long 2-3rd gear 180 degree turns

    Dubai: I drove 5 mins ago. DTM has issues at T1 sometimes as the back gets quite lose. I gain in the long T3 rught hander and at breaking zone at back straight but also not so much. DTM has power oversteers "quite often" after the hairpin. At next Hairpin I'm faster as well and then after the full throttle left cinck heavy breaking zone, where I'm fatser and that vorner tightens (not as much as Shanghai T1) but I' m also much faster in that corner. Last two corners I'm slightly slower but also DTM92 AI has sometimes poweroversteer at final corner.
     
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  11. IGEM

    IGEM New Member

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    I congratulate you on your extensive research and concur with a lot of it. My original question was about AI disproportional difference in free practice/qualifying/race pace. Do you have any observations on that?
     
  12. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    Not that much lately. I did only 10 mins Quali. And when there were about 20 AI, then they often ran packed and therefore slower as they could. But as soon one had a free track ahead, then they drove those Magic lap times. So ich your Quali session would bei Long enough, than I would think that every AI Driver would have somewhen a free track and you would See their real pace. From my champoonship above I would say that my real AI strenght would bei about 2-3% lower. I lead that Championship, but only cause AI is too slow in packed racing. I think they Take too much Care to avoid contact. For Open wheelers and prototypes it would be OK. But for GT/Touring they could bei more aggressive.
    So in short to your question. I don't think they are faster in any session.
     
  13. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    @anno900 your compilation is interesting and potentially very useful for improving AI behaviour.
    Could you please go through and clarify when you mean the AI are too fast or when you are faster than the AI?
     
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  14. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    But if we're talking about reasonably-sized grids I'm afraid you would have to make quali more than an hour long, maybe two hours.
     
  15. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson Is AI affected by elevation changes? I.e. do they go faster downhill and slower uphill, or they have the same acceleration?
     
  16. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson
    I do not have more notes, I'm afraid. But I did 2 race yesterday at Hockenheim. On my scale above it was about a 4-5 and Hungaroring (3-4 on my scale).
    There are many many parameters to take into account. First of all I want to say that driving against AI is much fun. So all my point from above are just "nico to have to have more fun".
    My "personal" parameters: I like the variety, that raceroom offers and I want to enjoy it with the limited time I have. So I switch mainly (except for my current "test") between cars. I always switch the tracks. Mayb other prefer only a hand full of tracks and there they are "masters" of these tracks. I'm not. I try to race every track as often as others with only few exceptions. So I'm not a pro at any track but I have a good base level at each track.
    Race settings parameters: I switch off all of them like damage, fuel usage, tyre ware, qualifying and I use default setup. So I hope an AI car starts a race with exact same parameters than my car. I know that AI uses a simpler physics model (correct if I'm wrong).
    Car/class parameters: I think that faster cars are harder to drive, not only for us sim racers but also for the AI. Examples are above that AI has power oversteers out of slow corners even though DTM92 are not the toughest cars. With FWD cars you cannot get power oversteers....
    Driving style parameters: I think AI drives overall too conservative lines. So they do not cut corner (within the tracklimits) and they do not overly much drive wide out of corners. If you are a master at a track you use every inch within the track limits.

    !!!But AI can drive difficult corners more constantly than me, as AI drivers know the tracks like "masters". So that is their advantage. At such medium speed corners you have to hit the corner entry good enough. And since I'm not a master at any track I only hit those corner entries maybe at 50% good enough and at such medium speeds corner you lose most lap time as in real life. Those heavy breaking zones slow corners are much much easier to handle, especially with ABS. You can drive them like with a gamepad. Full break, full steering lock, only thing is corner exit, which would be hard to handle with a gamepad.!!!

    AI parameters: I don't know if they have individual files, but I assume they do. In my chanpionship, were each position gain is worth one championship point, I can clearly see that some drivers are simply faster than others overall. I drive against 3 BMWs and 4 Mercs (I drive a BMW). From the standing (maybe I can upload them later on) I see that BMW seems to be the faster cars overall. If the AI drivers have AI files (as it was at GTR2 or even GPLegends) then they have parameters like qualifying skills, skills in packed racing, variety in lap times, agression level etc.

    Now try to go through each corner at Hockenheim and Hungaroring:
    Hockenheim T1: Tricky corner, where AI also sometimes struggles (not only at DTM92). So who is faster, AI or I: I would say 50/50, meaning sometimes them, sometimes me. T2 and T3. I'm faster till entry of T2. From there on AI is faster, mid corner and T2 exit and then of course at T3 entry as it goes nearly full throttle. Braking zone at hairpin. I'm faster at 100% if I hit breaking point correct, of course. The right hand cinck is not 100% throttle for me (AI seems to be able to go flat out, so they are slightly faster), so a short lift and then heavy breaking, were I gain laptime. Next right hander is a little bit hard cause no breaking but short lifting which you have to time good enough, which the AI does better than me. Next corner is motodrom entry. Tricky cause of hitting corner entry good enough. Next corner is Sachs corner (I think thats its name). Different lines possible. AI mainly drives it wider. I'm not constantly able to do it, so AI is slightly faster in the corner and therefore on exit. Then the left and right go flat out with tricky breaking to panultimate corner. At that corner I'm equal with AI but final corner they simply can carry more spped no matter how perfect I hit that corner. It is the same at Hungaroring final corner but at Hunagroring's final corner the speed difference it much much higher. I would even say that I lose all laptime against AI at Hungaroring in that final corner. But maybe that is simply my personal issue as I'm simply not good at that corner.
    My fastest laptime was (I think) a high 1:50. In Race one fasterst AI was (I think) low 1:48, so more than 2 seconds faster. I was quite long time in 2nd. AI at 1st place simply drove away by > 1 seconds fatser per lap than me. I spun out at this race in panultimate lap. In race 2 one AI spun at T1 and this driver did a low 1:46. So about 5 seconds faster than me. The AI drivers around me were just slightly faster than me. I don't understand how AI can be that quick at this AI level. I never had such a difference at any track before. Only Brno came near that delta between me and faster AI laptime. Somehow my assumption is, that AI drives about my laptimes as long as they are wihtin a certain range of me. Once they are out of my range (maybe about 2-3 seconds ahead or behind) they can run those magical times. But that is just my assumption that would explain these magic fast times.

    Hungaroring:
    T1 I gain, cause of hard breaking and DTM AI struggles a lot at corner exit. T2 has tricky entry for me and you should not run too wide at corner exit so that you have correct position to run T3 flat out. I'm not able to do that constantly enough. AI is more constant than me here and they gain. The fast T4 left hand is for me not as tricky as it seems to be so I'm 50/50 with AI. Next right hander is also quite eqaul and at chicane I can gain a little bit as I run the chicane more agressive than AI. Next left hands corner I can go inside slightly over curbs (AI never hits the curbs there), so I still gain. Next right hander AI is slightly fatser. Next left goes flat and next right has short breaking zone. AI is mainly faster there than me. Next right hander with breaking zone, I'm faster as I cut more than AI. Panultimate slower 180 turn. AI slightly faster. And then final corner, which ruins my lap times.
    My fasterst lap times was a mid 1:58 (I think) and AI fasest laps were about 1.5 seconds fast. But some AI drivers only were about 0.3 - 0.5 faster atbtheir fastest lap times.

    My overall advantage is that I can drive close to my best laptimes almost every lap, whereas AI has more variety.
    In my whole championship I only had once the overall fastest lap time at Dubai and was 2 times with top 3 lap times. Both ntimes at Brands Indy. So based on my 102% AI level and comapring fastest lap times, I would say thatbthe level would be slightly too high for me. But with AI's "lack" of packed racing and not driving near their fastest lap times constantly, I currently lead that championship by currently 3 points ahead P2 and about 10 points ahead of P3.

    So sorry for that long post. But it describes my experiences, my thoughts etc.
     
  17. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    Presumably you mean gradients? Yes, they are.
     
  18. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    Here is my championship standing.
    upload_2021-11-21_16-50-48.png
     
  19. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    And the fastest lap times. Tracks were alway 2 times at the same track from the list above expect bathurst, which I tested solely without being part of my championship. I was mire tha 3 times within the top3 fastest laps.....
    upload_2021-11-21_16-52-41.png
     
  20. anno900

    anno900 Active Member

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    Today I raced at Mid Ohio. Last two colums for fastest laps
    upload_2021-11-23_15-42-44.png