News (beta) Multiplayer Rankings

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by J-F Chardon, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. yoori

    yoori Well-Known Member

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    I've never said to ignore the sytem. Fixating on incident points is useless.
    Incident points are not a punishment and they don't lower your rep directly. They are one of the factors used in calculating rep.

    Race clean and your rep will be high, that's the point. In the end clean drivers even if they are sometimes hit maintain high rep.
    Saying that clean drivers are being penalized is pure BS.

    The system works as intended, clean drivers maintain high rep, "wreckers" have low rep. Consistently fast drivers have high rating, while slow drivers drop rating. Those two numbers are not a prize, you don't gain or loose for for having good or bad race. They are there to represent your overall ability at this moment in time. You will probably gain at the tracks that you like and loose at tracks you don't. Trying to avoid that can later place you in a race where others are at a different level. Those numbers will be used for matchmaking.
     
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  2. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    With that, I agree.

    But I disagree with your black-and-white, "the system's fine, it's you who's wrong" depiction of what's happening.
     
  3. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Well I don't think the system is broken. The problem is that people are seeing the numbers as a ladder that must be climbed. As someone who raced in ranked early on I'm seeing my rank gradually drop as more players enter the system and some of them inevitably are faster than me. Does that drop mean that I am bad? No, it means my rank was over inflated in the first place. And as above your reputation will stay good if you race clean, no if's or buts. Sure there will be fluctuations and sure sometimes you will get a drop due to someone else's error, but on the whole the rep will track at around the right level for a given player.

    The system works as intended. People's perception of how it should be used and what those numbers mean in real terms are perhaps not correct.
     
  4. yoori

    yoori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not black and white about it. There is simply no other than non-blame system that wouldn't be abused.
    I struggle midfield every day, cause I'm not fast. I end up having 10-20 incident points because sh.. happens.
    I'm averaging at about 86-88 rep. I know the pain of being crashed into and I'm looking for ways to improve things and make suggestions.

    The thing that can be changed is the rate a which the incidents infuence the reputation taking into account past x races. But I think that is alredy done and S3 has lots of data to tewak the system.

    The other thing the can be done is giving people incentive to grow their rep. That can be done in two ways:
    - positive - Split the servers to rookie / am / pro. rookie only runs single car track combo for eternity.
    - negative - if you drop below certain rep you get a "1 day ban" there are people with below 10 rep. It's impossible to get that low if it's not intentonal. You would have to be wrecking or standing still on track or disconnecting every single race.
     
  5. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    Me neither. I understand how it's intended to work and why it was chosen. I agree the choice was reasonable and I really hope it all comes together well in the end, with matchmaking and stuff.

    However when I try to analyse the system more thoroughly than simply "clean drivers maintain high rep, "wreckers" have low rep" I'm left with nothing much but hopes, unproved statements and what looks like a slight but systemic advantage for more aggressive drivers.
     
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  6. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    That's true for almost every competitive environment tho, to the point where the aggression exceeds the allowed threshold.
    Aggressive players always have a chance for higher gains, while they also run a higher risk of overdoing it.
     
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  7. Joakim Tärnström

    Joakim Tärnström Active Member

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    There seems to be conflagration of reputation and ranking too. Regardless of me caring for my reputation, it is an observation about the system that shouldn’t be called bullshit and disregarded with purely unsubstantiated arguments. My claim is not substantiated either, it is a hypothesis for others to consider. I may be wrong, but I have pointed out a possible flaw in the sense that the way incident points are handed out might actually lead to consequences the system wasn’t intended to lead to.
     
  8. yoori

    yoori Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you're overthinking this. It's natural that more aggressive as in willing to take the risk to overtake or defend will have advantage. It can backfire though and overly agressive people will drop in rankings.
     
  9. Maskerader

    Maskerader Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean?
     
  10. yoori

    yoori Well-Known Member

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    What is unsubstantiated?

    Your suggestion was to double the amount of points given to the driver behind.
    It was already pointed out that this would be imeditely abused by people braking early to make you hit them form behind.
    With 8 incident points it would require 4 contacts to disqualify you. That's lap 1 in the worst case scenario in the midfield. You'd be loosing lots of rep for people break checking you or changing lines under braking.
    If you want an example the was a penalty for not respecting blue flag, it lasted something like 1-3 days, I think. People kept driving behind someone with a blue flag until they got disqualified.

    From my experience, all ideas are welcome, analyzed and implemented if make sense.
    Your idea was already presented multiple times. Beta testers have stated multiple times are they were testing multiple ideas for making system assign blame and every single one could be easily exploited.

    Is that substantial?

    I get that you are angry cause you get crashed into. I've been there to the point I stopped racing for a while. It's actually much better now than it was then.

    I tried to give you some pointers that made things better for me, clearly your not here for that, sorry.
     
  11. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    When your reputation is relatively stable, incident points don't mean huge drops in rep. Here is a race that turned into a disaster for me. Forced to start near the back due to not getting a clear run in q session. Contact on the first lap. And a mistake from me that took me off track. Well over 20 Inc points which is way more than usual (I aim for less than 10) and yet my rep only dropped by 0.88. So if you usually race clean, usually keep out of trouble, but sometimes have a nightmare which may be your or someone else's fault, it's not the end of the world is it?

    Screenshot_20210705-101626.png
     
  12. Joakim Tärnström

    Joakim Tärnström Active Member

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    Something being pointed out without evidence doesn’t mean it is substantiated. It is an opinion.

    It might be that beta-testers already have tried some variant of my proposal. That doesn’t mean they are a good representation of the population. Could in fact be the very opposite. Also, what happens over time with regards to people’s behavio is a factor to be considered. Are small changes developing into more significant trends?

    Spare me the advice. Clearly you haven’t understood the main point of my argument. It is not about me. It is about the system.
     
  13. Joakim Tärnström

    Joakim Tärnström Active Member

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    Well, I think that is an interesting point and it might explain that some are more willing than others to trade reputation for results. I have no problem with the occasional catastrophic race and it’s impact on my points. I’m more concerned if the system as it is won’t have the intended consequences, that is clean racing. Obviously, almost any system is better than none but I put forward a possible problem that if eliminated (and the developers would better know how) could clean up the racing even more. Given the amount of data that probably exists I would believe my point could proven or disproven. The better the system works, the more everyone will benefit. If my hypothesis is proven wrong, then it is wrong. If nobody puts forward any hypotheses no improvement will be made.
     
  14. yoori

    yoori Well-Known Member

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    Now I feel offended. I did understand your point. I have a right to disagree with you though.
    I consider myself clean, not perfect but clean. Below is are my recent races. I don't feel penalyzed for trying to be clean while racing midpack.

    There is a fine balance between penalizing bad behaviour and not affecting victims in a no blame system. My experience shows that it's not quite ok.
    There's no real consequence for having reputaion of 1, having harsher penalty system would change nothing for people who don't care about rep, but at the same time would ruin it for the people that care.
    I've showed you an easy way to abuse you change proposal.

    Maybe when matchmaking is implemented there will be possibilty to make improvements or threre will be no need for them.

    Stating that someone doesn't understand you, because they dont agree with you is a bit much.

    You're part of the system. You saying that "It is not about me. It is about the system." is actually ending any potential discussion, as you seem not open to it. Every game has a ruleset and players need to find a way to be successful within those rules.




    upload_2021-7-5_12-5-42.png
     
  15. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Your only suggestion was that being rear ended shouldn't be punished. As has been said here, elsewhere, everywhere, there is no system that can do that and be safe from exploitation. It's already been investigated and dismissed, not only by this game but also by iracing for example.

    This discussion isn't going anywhere. Drive to the system that exists, or don't drive, it's up to you and what you want from a game really.
     
  16. Joakim Tärnström

    Joakim Tärnström Active Member

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    So I gather that the system shouldn’t be discussed. That is a strange way of improving things. Stop discussing if you don’t want to discuss.

    Making it more “expensive” to hit someone from behind was one suggestion. I’m open for more suggestions and possible explanations. The discussion is not being served by some trying to make it into a “stop complaining and learn how to drive” instead of elevating it to a discussion about the system, it’s possibilities and the potential consequences of certain suggestions.

    As for increasing the cost of hitting someone from behind, it can certainly be misused but the net effect could possibly result in cleaner racing as I do believe most drivers want to drive cleanly. Right now the system seems, at least to me until proven otherwise, reward aggression which leads to to less clean racing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
  17. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    By all means discuss. But suggesting the same thing that has been suggested hundreds of times before and dismissed for the same reasons is a waste of time.
     
  18. Joakim Tärnström

    Joakim Tärnström Active Member

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    You disregard the possibility that behavior changes over time as the system incentivise drivers in a certain direction.
     
  19. yoori

    yoori Well-Known Member

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    How do you know that? Where's you evidence of that claim?

    Stop beating the dead horse. Come up with another way to improve the system and think it through.
     
  20. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    What you are saying is that a player can sacrifice rep to gain position and thus rating. Which to a certain extent is true.

    But to what end? There is no benefit in having a higher rating right now, and if/when match-making is possible it will only result in you being matched with faster drivers whereby you will get beaten anyway.

    If a player wants to be aggressive then they take a risk. They risk their own reputation dropping to a level they cannot enter races, or they risk being caught up in a collision of their own making.

    No system can prevent someone doing something stupid. Aggressive racing is fine as long as it's clean. And if it isn't clean and borders on malicious there already exists the possibility to remove a player from the game for a period or forever.