Question Canned FFB

Discussion in 'Community Support' started by D.Boon, May 13, 2015.

  1. D.Boon

    D.Boon Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone here explain to me exactly what "Canned FFB" is and whether it's used in R3E?

    There's a debate going on at RoninGT which I'd very much like to definitively put to bed. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Georg Ortner

    Georg Ortner KW Studios Developer

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    Canned FFB, to my understanding, means that preset effects are sent to the wheel, instead of forces generated by physics.

    R3E´s FFB is based on the load on tires/steering rack as well as the amount of grip of each wheel.
    This makes it a physic-based FFB.

    Of course there are some elements (like in any other racing game/sim) that are preset effects, for example the engine vibrations, which you can choose to disable, if you want.

    Bottom line:
    R3E´s FFB is no more "canned" then any other simracing title.
    Except that you can choose to disable all canned effects.

    Hope this helps settling the debate :)
     
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  3. D.Boon

    D.Boon Well-Known Member

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    Certainly does, great response. Thank you! :D
     
  4. machwebb

    machwebb Well-Known Member

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    I thought so!! Thanks Georg
     
  5. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    @Georg Ortner - Can we expect further updates to FFB?

    What about the steering rack setting? On my wheel it doesn't have any affect and to be honest I would prefer to feel steering rack forces rather than load on tyres.

    Also what about a FFB clipping meter and minimum force setting?
     
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  6. Georg Ortner

    Georg Ortner KW Studios Developer

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    There are certainly some items on our wishlist, that we want to add to the ffb. Minimum Force being one of them.
    I hope we will have the time soon, to look into FFB improvements again,
    but as always there are many other things we need to work on, that are equally important.
     
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  7. D.Boon

    D.Boon Well-Known Member

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    Apart from the clipping meter, please, take your time with anything new for FFB, mines perfect as it is, by far and away the best FFB of any sim I've ever played. :D
     
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  8. RomKnight

    RomKnight Active Member

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    Please allow me to differ. The FFB is what tell us what the car is doing. TBH, since it was implemented in other sims, that parameter alone has changed the experience to everyone I know.

    And the most consumer wheel, bar Fanatec (maybe abused or older models) need that without exception.

    But yeah, I agree with Ronin wrt the FFB meter.
     
  9. ::SKRO::

    ::SKRO:: Well-Known Member

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    Minimum force would be a godsend.
    ... and I wanted to share some considerations about the current FFB.
    I think that my "positive" feedback I always gave, came from the fact that I've actually started to play exclusively R3E for a while now and I was (am) happy with what was going on with the wheel and the effects I received from it. A few weeks ago I re-installed AC to test if my shifter was kaput (and indeed it is, so I've to fix it... dang!) and I could feel immediately the difference.
    I don't want to start another boring "AC better FFB", just reporting some considerations I observed between the two.
    There's a very obvious variable named subjectivity that influences our perception and our I-LIKE/DON-T-LIKE FFB thing but I think that there are two macro-groups of people which divide in:
    - those who like to receive as much info from the car as they can;
    - those who like to get "neutral" info just coming from the front end.
    Personally, I'm part of the latter as I find myself understanding better what the car is doing and where are its limits (I remember when I played rFactor for the first time with the Realfeel plugin, which simulates EVERYTHING that's happening to the car: it gave me instant headaches. Then I tweaked and tested and googled till I found an OK solution for my liking and found the driving enjoyable).
    In my opinion feeling more the front-end versus the arrays of outputs we're receiving now would give better driving feeling, give us a more connected to the ground feeling and give us control on on tracks we don't know (yet).
    Let me try to explain this: when I drove R3E tracks, that I knew from different sims, it all felt ok. When I tried new ones... the feeling was weird. Cause I didn't know the track but more than that... I couldn't understand very clearly what the car was doing. To sum it up: driving on known tracks were ok because I KNEW them from my previous experience. I knew the turns, knew what gear, knew the trajectories, knew where I could push or take it carefully. Car responded the way I was expecting because I was prepared.
    With tracks I had zero experience, I really struggled sometimes cause it was difficult to understand what was happening to the car.
    My classic example is the slip effect. When you lose grip, wheel should get lighter, correct? Here it remains kind of heavy and it's not so intuitive to counter-steer and correct the spin.
    Even if you put the Understeering force to 100%, the wheel remains too rigid (maybe cause of the vertical load in conjunction with lateral and steering force?) and it has a weird feeling in your hands.
    Again this are just personal considerations. I still love the driving feeling I get from R3E and this for sure IS the sim I'll stick to from now on. I wish there'd be just the chance to improve the overall FFB (making the front end more present) feeling that probably (me think), would appeal to many.
    Cheers!
     
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  10. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    In other words a steering rack setting that works.
     
  11. Andy Kettler

    Andy Kettler Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Open your .rcs and search for: FFB steer force rear grip exponent="1.0" and change it to "0.0" wich gives you more feeling for the front end.

    And don´t worry it will still let you feel oversteer even at 0.0 ;)


    Some users played with front and rear grip exp. and they prefer settings like:

    FFB steer force front grip exponent="0.25"
    FFB steer force rear grip exponent="0.0"



    FFB steer force front grip exponent="0.6"
    FFB steer force rear grip exponent="0.25"



    FFB steer force grip weight="0.4"
    FFB steer force front grip exponent="0.40"
    FFB steer force rear grip exponent="0.0"
     
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    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  12. machwebb

    machwebb Well-Known Member

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    There is still weight to consider... We still need to have a feeling of the transfer that takes place. That is probably the rigidness. In contrast (and I agree it's all subjective) I can't get on with AC because I think grip loss is over done and the road cars front end is too wishy washy and the Fb is too peaky/shakey. But if I'm really honest, it's just about finding one that suits our expectations and getting on with it. Raceroom is that one for me, it's exciting, all the others come nowhere near on that. To me the feedback (while taking a while to get used to and now just after 6 months have I settled on a setting (lol)) is ace. Room for a little improvement but still the one that's suited to me.

    Cheers for those tips Andy.
     
  13. ::SKRO::

    ::SKRO:: Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Andy, I am definitely going to try those values asap.
     
  14. baronesbc

    baronesbc Active Member

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    totally agree with the analysis of Skro. in general I have the sensation of floating with the cars, I can not feel the tires in front, I do not perceive the understeer, the steering wheel does not become light even when I lose grip at all, despite the fact that in the settings ffb I set the appropriate voice to 100% .
    until the combo car/track is familiar to me, I can drive naturally. but on a new track that I do not know, I'm really struggling in the first outputs to drive in a natural way. sometimes on the steering wheel it seems there are forces at random that not even understand where they came from.
    For example, during a race an AI touched me in the right rear, he was only leaning against me, but unbelievably my steering wheel began to hang down on his side, even though there wasn't any loss of grip.
    for me there is something to fix
     
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  15. Sean Lander

    Sean Lander Well-Known Member

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    I too have to agree. While I applaud Sector 3 for the hard work they've done to get to where they are with FFB.

    When you fire up Assetto Corsa the feeling is a lot different though. I instantly know what's going on with the car, and therefore rarely am taken by surprise. Unlike R3E where I will sometimes spin out unexpectedly or go off track because I couldn't feel the loss of grip.

    What I love most about AC is that it just seems to work straight out of the box with virtually no need to tweak a ton of sliders.

    I really find the settings in R3E a minefield and I wish they could be simplified. Plus support for the Fanatec ClubSport v2 would be handy.;)
     
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  16. Andy Kettler

    Andy Kettler Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    You would have fun for weeks in the PCars FFB settings :D
     
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  17. MeMotS

    MeMotS Well-Known Member

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    Yeah , I gave up trying and have been using a File made by a user. He has 4 different settings. Its a folder you copy in the Mydocument\Pcars folder. Its works quite well and i aint touching any setting ever in there.
    37 slider/setting ... What a joke.
     
  18. RomKnight

    RomKnight Active Member

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    Some want control of everything, some want to have it all sorted by default (AC type of FFB which if the most flawed one to me)

    Of course the latter is an utopia since the same wheel on a different person translates to something else because of one's perceptions and assumptions.

    Personally, there is no reason to complain when we have options. Don't like defaults, make your own. If you don't even try, then is your fault.

    In real life cars do NOT feel the same either. Even just changing the the powersteering mode gives a different feedback let alone changing a car setup (simply things like adjusting tyre pressure make a difference).

    TBH, i think people try a game, don't try to understand how things work and then ditch it just like that. This is a very wrong aproach IMO and more so on a simulator. Just think trackdays. I wonder many laps one needs to do to get he's own car to do a good lap on a track (let alone on a second one).

    Takes TIME and the learning curve is steep. So, select a car and a track. Just change tyre pressures. feel the difference. get accustomed with a combo. And then, the ffb setting in the car setup are pretty self explanatory really (to me at least) so se the Master scale as a "gain" button and F's and Mz as equalizers to up or down what you want to feel.

    PS: but do this AFTER making sure FFB is at 100 and there's no clipping by adjusting tyre force.
    PS2: everybody want to know everything but no one cares to read.
     
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  19. D.Boon

    D.Boon Well-Known Member

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    I decided to have a go at GT:Academy 2015 on GT6 today.... I used to love the game and how the FFB felt.

    R3E has ruined it for me, completely numb, however bad some people think pCars or AC FFB is... go play GT6 then ask yourself what on earth made you think those games (pCars/AC) felt so bad.
     
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  20. MeMotS

    MeMotS Well-Known Member

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    I agree with everything you said.
    Having option is great but one issue is there's only so many hours in a day that I can invest in playing any of the 100' of titles I have and most are on backlog for lack of time.
    So spending time tweaking and reading to me personally is not something I want to be doing in my rare free time.
    But I do appreciate that some people do have more time than i do, so yes having more options can be good. I also like more options, but working correctly right out of the box is very important for most of us.
    :)
     
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    Last edited: May 31, 2015