Car physics is stupid

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Peste, Mar 20, 2020.

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  1. Bull Shark

    Bull Shark Well-Known Member

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    I hope you don’t expect the developers and forum members take a post like yours very serious.
    Well substantiated post.. thumbs up.
     
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  2. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

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    I would also like to thank Mr. Hodgkinson. It is not a matter of course that it will be answered so quickly, or at all. It works very differently at other studios and Sims. In this sense, many thanks to the S3 team. That creates trust .
     
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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  3. canF1

    canF1 Member

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    M3 runs fine.
     
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  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

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    I was just hotlapping with the Audi R8 GT3 the last days and i can't confirm undrivable behaviour, tbh. (regarding a comment, i read in this thread).
    This car is crazy fast and close to its limits, it indeed feels a bit "rallye-ish" and not very open to sloppy driving, you have to be explosive on the brakes and it needs a good timed throttle application, after rotating it in, but it has tons and tons of grip...my most favourite R8 GT3 in sim racing next to the ACC version.
    (BTW. too much TC will make it less controlable, when you lose it, it just takes away all power and it spins into the rotational direction...the "instabin" ;) )
     
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    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  5. Loki-D

    Loki-D Member

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    hey you guys thought i was bad lol

    But i will say Alex has done freakin grand job on the new physics, i will say he had made RR into a decent sim with good physics, ok i dont like the open wheelers :( - but the tin tops are on a very good level in this.

    Is it on rf2 ams2 or acc level.....

    ill let you guys judge?!
     
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    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  6. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

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    Regarding physics, IMO it's comparable in driving GT3 to ACC with more allowed slip, but behind it in setup work, it's comparable to AMS1/2, but still different (R3E and AMS1/2 are my favourite H-shifter sims, AMS1&2 seem to deliver a wider possibibility to save a car from spinning, the lost of a car in R3E is a bit more "immediately") and it's way more believeable, polished and less weird than rF2 physics in many occasions in my opinion.
     
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  7. Loki-D

    Loki-D Member

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    I find raceroom way more forgiving. But eh personal opinions great
     
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  8. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Well-Known Member

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    I have already heard and read from many, whether professional, amateur racer, or a simple hobby Simer like me, that the RL racing car is much easier to drive than in any available Sim. You can feel the forces and movements of the vehicle all over your body. In the Sim you have to interpret and learn a lot yourself. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. Just because one sim is harder to drive than the other does not mean that it is automatically more realistic. I personally think RRRE is absolutely understandable. In any case, the vehicles with the latest Physic updates.
     
  9. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

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    As long as you stay away from the threshold when traction and lateral grip falls off in R3E, this is true, the slip angles are often wide and you can overdrive quite good. Push it to knifes edge and you will dance on a pretty tight timed margin between making a corner entry/exit with speed or losing it without a chance of recovery. In this window you can lose or win significant amounts of time in one corner and R3E is not forgiving at all anymore.
     
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  10. William Richardson

    William Richardson Active Member

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    I started playing raceroom, for that very reason. In the end it helped me to become competitive, in other sims that are much more difficult. So I will always have a soft spot for the game, even if I don't play it to much anymore.
     
  11. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Especially when they talk about GT3 cars... A class of cars designed to be competed with rich amateur drivers. Don't get me wrong, pushing those cars to the aboslute limit still requires tons of skill, but they can be driven at reasonable pace quite easily. I mean, Nicki Thiim liked ACC, not because he has to tiptoe his way around the track, but because he can abuse the car and throw it into a corner with confidence.

    And even for older cars, Nelson Piquet coment after first trying the Ensign N177 Formula 1 car (after two season in Formula 3) was that it was unbelievably easy to control.

    We, sim players, got the impression, from last generation sims (and also from some big current one), that tyres are binary, and once you switch them off...you're done. And for some reason, some are viciously defending this dogma. Thankfully more real drivers are joining our hobby, and all unanimously say that the way how handling is portrayed in some major sims is just wrong.
     
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  12. SwaggerJacker

    SwaggerJacker Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I feel there is a good balance between saving and loosing the car. When the car gets out of shape and I can't catch it, I know I was really dancing on the limit. And Fred Astaire I am not!
     
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  13. fred.g

    fred.g New Member

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    Hello Vale, hello everyone!
    I’m quite new to Raceroom and i can confirm exactly what Vale is saying. Same issues with same cars...
    It’s a pity because the game, for all other aspects, it’s absolutely fine!!
    To me it seems that some cars, even the Canhard R51, once they start to oversteer, no matter what you do with steering or throttle, they spin... In other games, like ACC for example, cars are nervous but, unless you exaggerate, you can recover them... Are there any plans to improve slightly this aspect?
    Many thanks to all of you!
     
  14. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin Moderator Beta tester

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    maybe acc is lying to you and baby sitting you at this point ?
    there is lots of feedback coming to this sim from the real race car drivers , in wtcr for example , telling us what is right and what is wrong and that we are very close to real life ; in gt4 and gt3 ;ln the audi r8 is known in real life for being very unforgiving and pointy and wanting to kill you at least once or twice a lap ....use the traction control these cars are designed to drive with it on ; as for the silohettes these are pretend cars and are very fast little cars , so once you go beyond the limit you wont get them back ...just like it happens in real life

    "We chose RaceRoom for our championship, because it is the closest experience to those touring cars we drive in real life.

    A couple of years ago, most people didn't consider RaceRoom a truly hardcore sim, but it went through significant changes in the last two years. The closer a game gets to reality, the harder the cars become to drive, and the harder it gets to drive, the harder it gets to sell to people. So developers don't make realistic software every time, not because they can't or don't want to, but purely for business reasons.

    On the other hand, thanks to their close relationship with WTCR, RaceRoom moved away from this category and made huge steps in the direction of realism. They were there on the race weekends and I actually know that they received (secret) data from manufacturers, which helped them model the individual strengths and weaknesses of the real cars."


    I mean, don't get me wrong, obviously it is marketing speech to some extent, but it's nice to see real drivers acknowledge the recent changes.

    this is a quote from MICHELISZ NORBERT

    Andi
     
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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  15. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Well-Known Member

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    Maybe ACC also is using more advanced systems of TC and ABS. This is a major difference between the ACC and R3E GT3 for me, for example.
    I find both games pretty similar in actual GT driving, but the TC and ABS in R3E will let you bin it faster with its workwise, while in ACC it reacts "different" (In ACC trail braking is harder and less rotaty, due to ABS and TC reacts "better"). This is especially the case, driving it on knifes edge. Reducing TC often makes the cars way more recoverable (what is not unrealistic, though).

    Example the recent Audi Hotlap Challenge on Zhejiang, because this was the first time for me, pushing a GT3 car in R3E to my personal limits:

    This track is Autocross for the R8 and it has windy turns over and over. On the limit you break it in explosively, open it up, rotate it in and on much momentum you need to hit the right point in time to get on throttle while in 4 wheel slide. A tiny bit too late and you will lose it by spinning into rotational direction. So far so good, now the "phenomenon" comes into play... many cars in R3E tending to get the "instabin", the threshold in which you operate the tyres on high cornering speeds is very small, after a point they are not saveable anymore and it gets worse with ABS and too high TC. R3E is pretty forgiving up until a certain point, where it falls off. I'm not saying, it's unrealistic and it's not "suddenly", but it can already be down to different controller setups and small differences in tyres and physics.

    ACC is doing exactly the same, but TC for example will not interfer as strongly as the R3E system does, depending on which car you're using and how old its systems are.

    Also driver dependence is a topic by itself here. The area, when the 4 wheel sliding starts is hard to get right for some cars, after the physics changes. I don't think that it got worse, because now you can't actually be faster, just by overdriving.
     
  16. Lixma

    Lixma Honorary QA

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    I've just jumped back into the DTM'92 Mercedes Evo after a 2yr gap and the difficulty has ramped up considerably. Compared to the previous version there is now a significant 'pendulum' effect that is hard to predict and almost impossible to counter - once you feel it swinging around you're basically a passenger; the car just seems to 'torque' itself into the barrier. I couldn't say if it's more or less realistic but it's definitely harder to drive.
     
  17. XXVI Sol

    XXVI Sol Well-Known Member

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    Its an entirely different car after the update,it used to feel planted and boaty such as the whole class.Imo dtm92 feel perfect with lots of mechanical grip and not so much aero.
    1.did you apply default setup? if not, old prices are loaded and they are not relative anymore
    2.I used(exploit) very soft front arb for good turn in and mid corner grip,with new physics this is a no no,especially in dtm92 you pendulum like crazy
     
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  18. fred.g

    fred.g New Member

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    Hello Andi and thanks for your answer! I see your point, let's assume that GT3 cars must be driven with TC on...
    But if we speak about BMW 635 or BMW M3 E30? They don't have TC, so i would expect that, in these cases, a minimum chance of recovering the car should be there... at least, obviously, if you're not exaggerating with throttle! But again, once the car start to oversteer.... no matter of fast you react with steer and throttle... you're lost! Honestly it is not what i've experienced driving these old BMWs in real life!
     
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  19. Lixma

    Lixma Honorary QA

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    Everything is default, it's a fresh install.
     
  20. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the same experience here Greg . I didn't drive much over the last months since the winter season at our league ended , felt a certain lack of motivation for simracing in general and so I just jumped in for some funraces, private practice from time to time - as well with rF2 & ACC - such a break might also be helpful to re-adapt occasionally btw. . Thus, after re-adjusting FFB, understanding the new way setting up the car a.s.o. I really love the new physics - except for DTM 92 , but thats mainly a matter of pers. preference - I really like the DTM 95 Mercedes much much more and would love to see more cars from that period.
    Nevertheless, many thx to Alex (& Thomas) for the hard work ;)
     
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