Car to Learn On

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Destin65, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Hi folks, just wondering what is a good car to learn on as far as creating your own setups, learning the feel of racing at the limit, and actually feeling the changes from changes made to the car in terms of setups. I've got the basic pack that expanded the cars I can drive. Also looking at adding to my garage.

    Basically looking for something that is not so complex that it would be too steep of a learning curve. I'm guessing spend time on things like the Formula Junior? Aquila perhaps? NSU TTS?? Silhouettes?? Or should I just pick a car that I like and gravitate towards and just jump in and get intimate and learn from it?? I'm trying to look at this from both a gameplay and a "what would a rookie driver start out in" point of view I guess.

    Over the past few months I've just been racing cars I kind of gravitate towards and just running with the stock setups on the cars doing single races or championships. Haven't really dived into the innards of the cars yet. But that's what I'm eager to start getting into now as I'm progressing in getting a better feel for the cars and so want to start looking forward and thinking about in terms of progressing my learning and experience as I get better against the Adaptive AI and maybe one day start getting above Division 5 on leaderboards, lol.
     
  2. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    Hi, if you want to progress in driving I suggest you use only default setups. Cause the danger of setups is to use them to compensate bad driving habits.

    The FRJ is a good idea, as well as the Porsche Cup. The Cup has really few aids, so the car will give you instant feedback of every driving mistakes. Maybe it's not perfect, cause next patch will update its physics, but it's still good, a mix between understeer and oversteer that you have to fight against in every turn.
    Braking and especially trail braking is difficult with both cars, really good training and fun. :)
     
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  3. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I'd say the FJ is perfect, In fact I like to use it for learning tracks as it requires you to be smooth and take a perfect line to maintain speed. It is slightly limited in set up options and obviously has no aero. I'd say if you can master the FJ and one of the GT3 cars you can apply that knowledge across most other cars. I don't spend ages setting up, just get it somewhere near and adjust the AI to my speed.
     
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  4. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Any car on the newest physics will work the best (anything post GT1 rework). So the FRJ is a very good one. Cars on older physics, even something such as GT3 have significant flaws, especially regarding setups, that can teach you some bad habits. Hopefully the list of cars on newest physics will become bigger and bigger :)
     
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  5. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Thanks for the feedback so far. And Chatcureuil, that has been what I was trying to avoid in, as you said, using setup problems to compensate for bad driving, lol. I certainly don't wanna do that.

    If I may give you an example of something I've been dealing with that I'm pretty sure is probably driver error or a bad driving habit, or simply a trait of the cars in question, I'll leave it up to you decide, lol... but Hockenheimring Short I've been racing on lately with a few different cars just for fun since it's a fun little track. I was studying the 1992 season in particular and saw where in 1992 the DTM race twice at Hockenheim with the first visit around mid-season and it was on the 2.6km short course like is in the game. Then later towards end of season they raced on the longer full GP course, which back then isn't in the game as it is now.

    But anyways, Hockenheimring Short, the back straight... particularly the last left hand bend before you get to the chicane where you have to slow to a crawl... going through there in the less nimble 1992 Mercedes DTM car it was no problem with that left hand bend as the car simply rolled and swayed and was happy to push it's way through the turn very generously and making a noob like myself look good. I switched over to the Formula Junior for fun and every single lap I'd get to that bend, lift off and the car spins all the way around to the left and backs into the wall. So then I'd try and hold speed, but that had the opposite effect of pushing the car and off through the grass to face plant the barriers at the chicane, lol. After about 15 laps I finally figured out you gotta use some actual skill and talent to get through there! I tell you, that bend is very deceiving and has now taught me that I'm both sometimes taking the track for granted a'la "Pshaw, look at that little turn!" and suddenly finding out that I am not as talented as I'd like to be.

    I've pretty much deduced my problem there as being lift-off oversteer I think it is called?? I'm guessing I'm doing the noob maneuver giggling at the innocent little bend and trying to cadillac my way through it only for it to send me off track. I'm guessing it's a bit of slowing up sooner or using a combination of featering throttle/brakes to keep car stable and on track through the turn? I'm not good with footwork at times and don't know all the nicknames for it like heel n toe, etc. but I'm guessing that's more of a bad habit rather than something the setup will fix, correct?
     
  6. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Different cars require different levels of finesse :p weight transfer is the key and the frj is an extremely good car to learn how to handle weight transfer
     
  7. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Dtm92 in the game are on very old physics, you won’t learn much from those imo. They can be fun to throw around a track and that’s about it
     
  8. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Good point Thomas and I was just trying out some other cars on the Hockenheim Short, geez, I'm embarrassed at how this little bend in the track is destroying a lot of the cars, lol. I was just using the WTCC 2016 Citroen and I can generaly get through there, but i gotta be very careful. Otherwise I do like the FRJ and spin off to left or I get a nervous twitch and overreact and then I'm in the barriers with my engine and gearbox destroyed.
     
  9. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Forget fancy footwork for the moment, it best to go right back to basics. Don't even bother with left foot braking to begin with. You're looking for smooth transitions from throttle to brake and visa versa.
    Remember the FJ has no aero to help it around corners and it's engine is rearward. As you come off the throttle the weight comes off the rear wheels, if you are trying to turn as you do that it's going to go round on you. That's lift off oversteer.

    Slow right down and make sure you get your braking done early and straight (for now). Get a feel of how much grip is available in any corner and don't exceed it. As you get more confident in the car you can begin to brake a little later and feed the car into the apex while easing off on the brake (that's trail braking).

    What you don't want to be doing is coming off and on the brakes or throttle mid corner, that will only unsettle the car. Smooth application of all pedals and steering is key. These cars will not flatter the driver like a GT3 can do. Start slow and build speed whilst keeping control.

    Have fun with it.
     
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  10. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    One of my good laps with the FRJ, I try to reach the limit on braking and as you can see this is mostly subtle touch on the brake pedal, most of the braking is done before the turn. Then I gently push the throttle to put weight on the rear and get the car balanced while turning, and prepare speed for the next straight part. That requests some training, and before all some fun! :)
     
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  11. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Ravey, Chat, thanks for the pointers! And yes, I suppose before I move on to worrying about setups I should first learn the finer arts of car control.

    Ravey, thanks for putting that into perspective with the throttle work and focusing on getting the car prepared to enter the turn before getting to the turn. That makes so much sense! There I am trying to force the car through the turn or just thinking the car is gonna stick probably because of bad habits from too many lesser games that were more for fun arcade than realism. So yeah, I gotta remember to force myself to be patient and learn the cars handling on the tracks and build up from there I suppose. Ugh, sounds too much like work, haha!

    Chat, visualizing helped with that and liked how your video displayed car control on that track. I'm gonna be getting the American track pack at some point in the next few weeks so I am looking forward to that course in particular since in reading about the game some like it because it's a challenging track. And certainly looks it, especially with that one turn you went through that goes to the right cresting a hill and then falls away. I actually held my breath waiting on you to spin or go flying off like I would have done! LOL But you didn't, so you have better car control and patience than me! That's what I need to work on, car control and patience.

    Nico, same here only I want that track now! lol
     
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  12. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Just to give some of my background, it's mostly Nascar kind of stuff in sim racing. I literally started my simming career in the Papyrus games of old. When they went defunct I bought an EA title or two that replaced that and eventually faded out of the scene for a long time, getting more into MMOs and flight sims, FPS games, etc.

    Aside from those games I did have a couple of others like Sports Car GT and NFS: Porsche Unleashed that I adored playing. How real those are/were I have no idea but were fun to play around with. I'd say I spent more time in NFS:pU than SCGT. But yeah, I eventually gave up on racing for a long time even though I never got rid of my old MS Sidewinder Precision Pro wheel that I'm still currently using, surprised it still works after some 15-20 years, lol.

    Anyways, this game started bringing me back into racing and only in the last year have I really spent a great deal of time being serious about it, so to speak. Wanting to get better, maybe eventually look into joining in with some of the more serious online racers and leagues. I mean, it's all about the fun but by serious I mean in actually having the confidence to get out there and not embarrass myself or ruin someone else's race. Cause there's nothing worse than ruining someone else's race at the same time I ruin mine. Heck, in single event or championship mode I'll often restart the race if I take out an AI car, lol. Can't escape that guilty feeling even when offline!

    As far as real life racing, never do any professionally. Just some street racing with friends or stuff. Owned a few decent cars in real life like an '85 Monte Carlo SS that I never did much with cause it was clearly abused by a previous owner and had a suspect transmission that would misshift occasionally. Then there was probably my funnest car of all, the '84 Fiero that was so much fun to just take out on twisty country roads at speed. That one nearly got me into trouble taking curves too fast but it gave me the 'real feel' of what it's like to drift, albeit accidentally, through a turn and what the limits of the car was. Also had a '72 Plymouth Sebring that I bought at one of those "too good to be true" sales. Guy puts ad in paper saying he's going through a divorce, car must go, doesn't want ex to get it, $500, matching numbers, factory a/c, all paperwork, one family car that passed from father to son, sat in garage for past 10 years.." and wow, powerful car that looked just like the Roadrunners. It wasn't much for road racing as it wallowed through the turns like the 1992 DTM cars, haha!! And it was a notorious floater above 100 mph. Took it down one 2 land highway with a lot of bridges through the country and at 105 mph that thing would hit a bump coming off a bridge and 100 yards down the highway the car is still reacting to that bump! It was like delayed reactions or something. But yeah, I never got it much faster than that street racing cause the float could get scary. And when I drive the Group 5 cars in test sessions, it reminds me of that old Plymouth I had, lol.

    Kind of disappointed that I never got into real life racing. A high school friend of mine ended up the President of the local SCCA chapter and me and some other mutual friends would often go watch him and the rest of the SCCA folks from around the area compete with their cars doing mostly SOLO II stuff and time trials, once in a while a poker-run style of rally thing I think it's called? But yeah, he got his dad's old Datsun 210 sedan family car and raced it! And did well! Later he got a Formula 440 car, now that thing looked sweet! Then eventually our careers all took us separate ways and I haven't seen him in a long time, sadly.

    Maybe I should pull a Paul Newman. Watched a documentary on television recently about him and his racing career. If he can start racing at a late age, maybe I could too? LOL
     
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  13. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Starting a championship season with FRJ, 12 races, mix of half short courses with longer GP course and then the Nordschleife VLN for good measure. Hopefully after these 12 races I'll have a much better understanding of proper driving.
     
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  14. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Hey guys, one quick question that I've never seen before.

    Driving the FRJ in qualifying at Hockenheimring Short... those 2 last right-handers before coming on to the start/finish straight...

    There was 2 laps in a row in which I think I finally started getting the apex just right to get through both of those bends in one large sweeping arc to maintain speed but then I noticed as I went blasting down the start/finish straight that my engine light was flashing and would indicate a sliver of damage every few seconds it seemed, after I slowed to brake for the hard right turn at end of straight the light would go off and not come back on until I went through that same section.

    Any idea what that was about??
     
  15. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    It did it quite a lot during the race. At all areas of the track. The only thing I can guess is the engine was overheating?? Water temp was 201-205 and oil temp was 220-224 during most of the times it was flashing. I'm guessing that's the reason?? Can't recall ever seeing that before in the game, neat.

    With respect to the race, I'm wildly inconsistent so I need to desperately fix that. I managed to grab pole by a whisker but had trouble consistently going that fast though I did come very close to it on some laps, I's say of the roughly 14 laps in Qaulifying most were 0.5 to 1.5 of a second slower while a few were 0.5 or less. Race settings were 30 minutes practice, 15 minute qualifying, 20 minutes race. Fastest in all 3. But did I win? No.

    Why didn't I win? Lack of consistent car control. On lap one me and the car were nervous in turns 1 and 2 so I played it safe and fell to 2nd. Laps 2 and 3 saw spins at the problem area on Hockenheim Short, that left hand bend before the chicane. I thought I'd be better prepared for it trying to drill myself on it throughout practice and qualifying and doing consistently better through there, but under race pressure I folded up like a lawn chair and spun away and fell back to 11th after spinning through it second time on lap 3. Fought my way back up and rest of the way I only made minor mistakes like going offline in some turns while only having 2 minor runoffs on grass, only one of which cost me a spot from 8th to 9th. Ended up finishing the race in 9th. Happy that second half of race was overall better and more consistent but disappointed that I wasn't able to do better and more consistent.

    So that's my two biggest problem areas I see. Car control and consistency.

    Now for some humor. One of my runoffs was due to brain fade. Yeah, if you followed F1 you know what I'm talking about, haha! David Coulthard was accused of it. Well, it happened to me during the race! Guilty!
     
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  16. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    That would be the engine overheating yeah, either some wrong numbers set in the game or you were really abusing it. I will report it to be sure :p
     
  17. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Good idea Thomas, I'll make a video of it next time it happens. May just be an issue with Hockenheim? Have been pushing car hard and didn't do it that I saw at Zandvoort Club circuit. Am at Brands Hatch now and temps are climbing but no flashing engine light yet.

    May go back and run a test at Hockenheim to see if it repeats if it's a possible bug. Or if someone wants to beat me to that and is more adept at making and posting videos, lol.
     
  18. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    What gear are you taking those turns in, 2nd?
    I just gave this a quick go and I think you can overheat the engine if you really try, but with my normal shifting it wouldn't overheat.
    My suggestions:
    • Don't shift down too quickly, wait for the revs to drop a fair bit before you start shifting. By doing so you're not only protecting your engine and gearbox, you're also reducing the unsettling of the car.
    • Try taking the double-right in 3rd instead of 2nd (once in a while). You don't have to do this all the time, but when you see the temperature nearing a critical value, just take it easy for a bit to let the car have a little rest. From my pov it is also a drivers responsibility to listen to his car and react to messages it sends you.
    Maybe give these suggestions a try and see if they help.
     
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  19. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Good info Christian, and I drive lately mostly on automatic as I'm still trying to work the cobwebs out of this old wheel and sometimes it double-shifts from the old buttons but it's getting better. But in the Hockenheim race I was on automatic but would downshift manually to first at the chicane and then let the automatic do the rest.

    But you are right, and it's one thing I love about this game in terms of realism (abusing the car will come back to haunt you), I was trying to keep my revs up through the double-bend feeding to the front straight, so maybe it being high pressure in 2nd on auto from my trying to hold the revs and speed as I'm trying to make one curve out of two... then winding it up in 3rd with my foot to the floor, lol. Even with automatic I'm guessing that can still abuse the engine? So you might be on to something there!

    I was also racing at Noon as far as time of day, whether that may have played a part too or not.
     
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  20. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    Hi @Destin65 ,

    thanks for the info. I wasn't aware you're using automatic transmission, so that could be sth to investigate further because you don't have as much control over the shifting but should still be able to drive and finish a race normally with auto. Maybe there needs to be some corrections made here. Will keep an eye on this.

    Regarding the double shifts: If you're having issues with your hardware, maybe this setting could be helpful:
    2018-11-13 1054 0001.jpg
    You can find it in the Advanced section of the controller settings and it adds a delay to the input recognition for your shifter assignments. If you increase this it could help in case your hardware sometimes sends two signals where you only wanted one.
     
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