Car to Learn On

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Destin65, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Awesome!! Thank you for that info, I hadn't thought to see if there was a setting to prevent double-shifts from old/buggy hardware. You guys think of everything!!! <3

    Also, I found exactly at what point it is happening on Hockenheim Short... must be due to my driving style combined with the high revs it generates as a result just like you pointed out! It took several laps to induce the overheating condition. Basically, I had my foot to the floor whenever permissible. Other times I'd be part-throttle just holding speed through some turns. The only place I manually downshifted is for that chicane where I'd drop it to 1st gear manually. In terms of what was driving it up, upon watching the replay I can see where other sections of the track were contributing to push the oil and water temps higher. Mainly it's from my holding too high of throttle or basically being too close to the redline for too long in turns.

    I took a couple of screenshots. First screenshot is as I'm still in the double-bend before getting to the start/finish straight...

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    And here is a screenshot as I'm entering the start/finish straight and just afterwards the engine light starts flashing on the dash display for the first time. The oil temp is still showing 219 in this screenshot but soon after it hits 220 as I'm further down the straight.

    [​IMG][​IMG]


    So you are right Christian! It was due to my driving style, high revs and generally abusing the car without realizing it!! Geez, THAT MAKES ME LOVE THIS GAME EVEN MORE!! The fact that car abuse is also simulated and factored into everything is just amazing and adds to the immersion and race strategy! Yeah, no way could I finish an endurance race running the engine hard like that. I'm sure it'd quit sooner rather than later into a race lasting several hours. As it was, my race was only 20 minutes long but the last couple of laps the engine light was flashing almost constantly by that time and with a little sliver of red showing at top of engine health.
     
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  2. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    I am learning so much from this topic! I'm kinda glad I made it now despite feeling embarrassed at the fact that I'm not quite yet ready to start learning setups. lol

    But I wanted to address what you said here Ravey and to ask a question about something that I think I had an epiphany on!

    The part which I quoted of your earlier comment about breaking straight until I get comfortable then start later braking if I feel comfortable... I started doing that at a couple of tracks tonight and believe that I'm getting a feel for what you explained there.

    Also, I think I stumbled upon the meaning for the brake bias. Now, I'll explain what I thought it was and what I now think it was, after that feel free to tell me where I'm right or wrong. And that goes for anyone reading if you want to jump in too.

    I was thinking that brake bias had more to do with trying to get all 4 tires working together and that I was annoyed at the fronts locking up too easily on say a setting of 58/42. So I'm start pulling back to say 54/46, lol. Also the CrewChief mod keeps telling me to be careful cause the rear brakes are cold... I think that was throwing me off too. I knew you wanted more front brake bias to keep the rear from spinning around, but thought that was under ordinary braking.

    Now, I think brake bias has a lot to do with how well you and the car are able to trailbrake and late brake into turns while staying stable?? After pushing it back forward to 58/42 again I noticed the car felt more stable and predictable when I did late break and started getting more comfortable doing it. In some turns, like the first turn at Brands Hatch where the track drops away to the right and you're fighting to keep the car on track and from sliding off to the left, I found with a good bias that I was able to extend my braking deeper into the initial part of the turn while easing off and holding speed to try and help the car track through the turn and then roll on throttle and speed away as I'm on the downhill section where it's straightening out and the car has settled.

    So do I have it right now? That's probably what was throwing me off and even contributing to some of my lift-off oversteer issues I was having, especially if I dared to touch the brake. Pretty sure my bias was too far to the rear.
     
  3. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    You're on the right track. I posted on here a week or so a go to a series of tutorials on YouTube by Chris Hayes. I'd recommend you take a look at them, they explain in simple terms how different settings work.

    Paddock hill bend at brands is a great corner, I was driving it in the FJ last night, still not got it quite right. Very difficult corner, downhill, off camber and a unsighted apex.
     
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  4. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Lift off oversteer is more to do with springs though, if it's oversteering before you touch the brakes then brake bias won't help. Stiffening the front springs will slow down the weight transfer and help heep the rear planted, but can increase understeer. Everything is connected and it's often the case that you need to adjust one or more settings. Really is best to watch those tutorials.

    https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/car-to-learn-on.11930/page-2
     
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  5. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    It's important with the cars like FRJ or Porsche Cup to downshift at low rev. It's about the same idea as being gentle on brakes while turning.
    When you downshift at high rev, you give a kick to the rear. If you do this while braking hard you probably will lock rear wheels and miss your braking. If you do this while turning you might lose the rear and go in oversteer. :)
     
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  6. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    I'll give it a try tonight. :)
     
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  7. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    What do you mean by "waiting"?
     
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  8. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Ah I see what you mean, maybe its a factor that these cars have relatively low grip due to no aero and narrow tyres. Jumping hard on the brakes will easily overcome the grip of the tyres. Also often find that its necessary to feather the throttle before getting back on the power fully, almost waiting for the car to be settled. I do find them enjoyable to drive, especially in that drift phase between braking and acceleration although I have no idea if this translates to real life. I guess @Alex Hodgkinson can tell us if this is realistic behaviour for this car?
     
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  9. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    He does talk about how it is completely different to GT type cars so maybe that is something....I think they just take some time to learn. 1st time out I was spinning off every corner but gradually found a feel for the car. I genuinely think its one of the best cars in the game.
     
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  10. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    Same here on leaderboard. And after an unknown amount of extra laps I'm at 1.17.177 with some tens to take yet. This track is particular cause there's relief on every braking zone, it's hard but interesting. :)
     
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  11. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to say that I'm playing with sequential gearbox cause I don't have H-Pattern, it's easier.
     
  12. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    Ups, I meant I'm using paddles.
     
  13. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    This info comes straight from Alex cause we talked about this during testing. He has hands on experience with this type of car and can surely elaborate more deeply, but he told us that the data shows these cars actually create lift once you're going fast enough, due to the lack of wings.

    Regarding tyres, they need quite long to get even some temperature into them, simply because the car is so lightweight (amplified by the above fact, no downforce pushing on them). Depending on the track we're talking about 2-3 laps, and even then they won't really heat up, expected temps are in the 60's.
     
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  14. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    I know about the waiting too as that threw me off when I first started driving the FRJ. I guess it's an illusion of waiting because you're not going at apparent high speeds like with more powerful race cars, so you're not experiencing things in rapid-fire succession every lap. Which I think is helpful for a newer racer like myself because it helps to slow things down and gives me more time to prepare for turns and to think about braking points and how much force I can get away with on the pedals, etc. So in a training aspect I'm loving the car.

    And yes, it's a handful and reminds me of trying to drive the Corvette from Group 5, haha. I actually went a 15 minute qualifying session without being able to set a lap time in that Corvette, haha! That's when I felt I needed to slow things down and maybe focus more of my training on less powerful cars but yet which are similar in feel I guess. Because I want to get all the Group 5 cars and even the GTO cars, but in test drives I find it's all I can do to keep some of them on the track. So that is eventually what led me here thinking that maybe it was the setups. That maybe I could tune the cars to make them handle better. But that just shows what a rookie I am in sports car racing, lol.

    I think Ravey suggested I check out a series of YouTube videos? I'm gonna do that soon, but for now have been watching videos on the 'Safe is Fast' website by Honda. They're not too long and give visual aids and actual driver input that helps with how the cars feel. I was just watching the series of videos on Oversteer vs Understeer, how to recognize them, how not to mistake one for the other, car balance, etc. Pretty informative for such short videos.

    http://safeisfast.com/video/understeer-vs-oversteer-part-2-mistaking-one-for-the-other/
     
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  15. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    Agree completely, there is a reason little buggers like this one are used in racing schools all over the world.
    This might not be the most informative video in terms of how to drive these, but there's some great quotes in here that sum up the gist of what they are and provide:

    Still my favourite car in the game, also because it's such a hoot around my favourite track, Raceroom Hillclimb.
     
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  16. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    I'm about the same , consistent 18.2's ...can't quite break into the 17's
     
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  17. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Nice video! And yes, one can glean some tips from that too.

    I have just been blasting around the Suzuka East course, a fun little track you can get around in less than a minute. I really love challenging that long sweeping first turn in the FRJ. Sometimes I just go straight off til I get the hang of braking, or I oversteer in and fight to stay off the inner barrier, lol, but when you get that turn right it is sweet! I've pretty much figured it out now, start braking from around the line on track near the orange marker, but don't brake fully... seems you need to let the car carry speed and this is where I've been finally learning a lot and learning trailbraking like at Brands Hatch with it's similar curve, minus the elevation change.

    But yes, brake from around that orange marker to get the car slowed up a bit and then just let the car drive into the curve and try to plan it so you run out towards the curbing and try to arc it for the exit out the other end. For a while there I was stuck having to brake 2 or 3 times to keep a line and would end up spoiling the momentum. But I finally got it right a few times, and oh... the car wants to understeer a lot going into turns when I was trying to keep up with AI cars... but if you get it right through that long sweep, it seems that as you get to the apex of making it all one long sweeping curve... the car reaches a point that you'll have a slight oversteer and then be able to drive the car out the other side feathering the throttle as needed to let it drift out to the curbing on the exit and if you do it right the car sticks at that point and you're blasting off that little straight heading for the chicane and esses going up the hill... oh my.... i managed to do that on one lap and it was just so thrilling and was like hitting the sweet spot, like when you eat a favorite piece of chocolate candy and that slight shiver combined with that smile inside... it is just awesome!!

    Now if only I can do that consistently lap after lap after lap rather than throwing the car in the stands every few laps or spinning into the inner wall when I either overreact or get the braking wrong, lol. But I got to where I can generally get through there in good shape now it's just tough trying to hit the sweet spot line through there.
     
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  18. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    Great thread going off here, just love it!
    Some really useful advice and information being exchanged; I don't actually have anything to add. The FR-J is the ideal learner car as it responds beautifully to the right technique and will teach you everything you need to know should you decide to progress to quicker cars.
     
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  19. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    Thought I'd share this historic television show and which features some great classic footage of Trans Am touring cars from the 1971 season in the Under 2.5L category. Pay attention to the 2:30-2:50 mark of the video especially, driver John Morton talking about being smooth on the track and trying to find the limits, some of the footage is in-car showing him working the steering wheel. It looks like me when I'm trying to drive the FRJ and some of the classic cars that are loose, lol. A lot of interesting advice can be gleaned from this 26 minute episode. And I just love the classic footage and sounds. Seems to fit in well with the conversation cause at various points he's talking about driving styles, and how he approaches races from a track perspective, talks about how he knows there's always at least one weak curve that he struggles with and he talks about how he deals with that. Also about pushing the limit, getting "unsmooth" if necessary (is unsmooth even a word? lol) and generally what it's like driving these kinds of cars to the limit. Getting the most out of them, etc.

     
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  20. Destin65

    Destin65 Active Member

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    So I picked up the ADAC 2014 Experience that was discounted on the website version of the RaceRoom store (not Steam, not in-game) for $9.99 since it had some tracks I wanted even though I had 3 or 4 of the tracks already, plus i got 6 car models with 19 liveries, the ADAC GT3 cars which are great.

    I tried them out in the Test Drive section of the store and I must say they definitely feel different from say, the DTM 2016 cars. So that has me curious since that was mentioned before about the newer DTM cars vs old.

    Would it be safe to say that the cars like the DTM 2016 are more of a GTR1 type of car as compared to the more stock feeling GT3 cars?? At least that's the way it seems. Feel free to correct me if I'm off in thinking that.

    Took the Formula Junior out on some of the tracks already in practice mode. Decided to try Oschersleben with it's legendary square turn 1, lol. It's not that bad in an FRJ and running solo, lol. Not sure I'd want to try my luck diving in with a full field of cars. But wow, that is a challenging track for the FRJ with some spots you gotta be smooth and on line or that rear will swing out and spin you right around. Anyways, I'm happy with the ADAC pack so far. Some really nice cars and especially the tracks that are great. :hearteyes: