do you find AI usually qualify better than they race?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Daeburon, Sep 16, 2020 at 10:44 PM.

  1. Daeburon

    Daeburon New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2020
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I havnt done too many full races with qualifying, but the few i have it always seems this way. I might start 8th and finish #3, or start 5th and take #1.

    I've seen this in a lot of games. I suspect devs do it to try and make the race more interesting. the player qualifying worse creates some tension, urgency and desire to win. the race happens, the player has a better than expected result based on qualifying, making the player feel good about their performance. it makes the game more exciting, and creates a rollercoaster that keeps the player coming back. if the race result is generally close to the starting grid order, maybe some players get bored of it.

    for an arcade game, i think this mechanic is totally great, as the point of the game is pure entertainment for the player.

    However, for a sim, i find this to be a turn off. AI should be realistic, not suddenly under or over perform for the sake of theatrics. a sim should be about realism, not fiction.

    im hoping in RRE this has just been a fluke...or maybe its depends on AI level. (im playing against AI level 90-92) maybe it would be ok if lower AI levels did this, for newer players, but hopefully at a certain point its not fake like this, it feels scripted, which is a real turn off.

    another reason this is a turn off, is that if you want to turn the AI up so they perform close to you in a race, it probably means they cream you in qualy...so then you have to start at the back of the grid and fight to get to the front. it shouldnt work like this, its not realistic. it should be possible to qualify in 1st, and finish in first the whole race with only a small gap behind, not have to fight all the way from the back, or turn AI down so much you start in 1st and finish 1st with a ridiculous 2 minute gap or something. IRL in many races, the podium is going to be drivers from the top 5 or so on the grid. heroic results like going from back of the grid to the podium can and do happen, but these should be extremely rare, not an every occurrence.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Ratings:
    +239 / 0 / -0
    I definitely share the feeling that theyre quicker in qualy than in the race and seeing your ai level i doubt its related to that as im typically at 110-115 and run into the same issues
     
  3. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Ratings:
    +2,327 / 0 / -0
    I believe that this phenomenon mostly stems from an attempt to replicate real life results.
    Take any real life racing series and qualifying lap times will always be much quicker than lap times during the actual race, so in theory this kind of behaviour isn't unrealistic at all.

    The problem is that besides the pure data there's a variety of reason as to why race lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and we can only simulate a few of them realistically. We've talked to the devs about this in the past and it's also been brought up and acknowledged in regards to DTM now, so it's definitely not ignored.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. anno900

    anno900 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Ratings:
    +22 / 0 / -0
    That is good to hear.
    My experiences and thoughts.
    Experiences:
    Did a qual+race (whole chamionship to be precise) with touring car classic fixed AI 100%.
    Round 1 at Moscow (full layout):
    I qualified 1st and finished 5th. AI had about 1 second fatser lap times in race (so the opposite of what Deaburn/Nico/Christian) wrote.
    Rounds 2-5 (last of them at Motegi (full layout):
    Quite the same at all 4 rounds. I qualified mid pack and raced mid pack. AI was about as quick as in qualy.

    Experiences from former races:
    Especially at Ningbo and Zhejiang: AI qualifies 2-3 seconds faster than in race. So you can catch up from dead last in qualy to podium in a 10 minutes race.

    My settings are:
    no tire wear
    no fuel consumption
    no pitstops
    fixed day time, no time multiplicator
    standard car setup
    So my goal if I race against the AI: Make the settings as standardized as possible.
    I do not know if AI used these parameters as well or if they run empty fuel tank at qualy etc.

    So my thoughts:
    At some tracks (there are a few more than those 2 Chinese tracks, but at them the difference is significant) AI has a bonus or malus at qualy for whatever reason. Also taking into account that I change the cars, which I drive, quite often and I do not play the game that ofter (1-3x per week for one race weekend). So getting used to a car may take 1-2 race weeknds and also being not on the same at each track (even if I know them quite good) I come to the conclusion that for qualy there is some black magic in the backround.

    Anyway. Thumbs up for the racing sim game with by far the best AI. The race at Moscow, where I fall back from 1st to 5th was a blast. Absolutely mind blowing with AI battles, where AI tried to overtake on the outside line, side by side for multiple coreners etc.. It was like MX5 cup race with battles all over.
     
  5. TheOutdriver97

    TheOutdriver97 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2019
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    I've noticed a slight decrease in AI pace from qualifying to race but as @Christian G mentions, this happens in real world racing.

    Because the car has to be as fast as possible over a small number of laps in qualifying teams will set their car up more aggressively (increased camber etc.) and besides maybe an early banker lap drivers will be on maximum attack.

    During a race the car will be setup to manage the race distance as efficiently as possible and drivers may elect to drive to a number to manage tyre life and fuel load so it is rare real world racing cars hit the same numbers in racing that they do in qualifying.

    Personally, I think RaceRoom gets its right give or take slightly. Project Cars 2 got it horribly wrong with superbot qualifying AI and toddler race AI.
     
  6. anno900

    anno900 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Ratings:
    +22 / 0 / -0
    I'm quite fine with the current situation. Just some smaller issues as I described above at very certain tracks.
    If you watch more amateur class racing (BRSCC etc.) the pace lap times and qual lap times do not differ that much.
    Of course at higher classes, there is nmore money and they can spend time in special qualy-setup use a set of tires just for onhe fast lap for qualy.
    So all in all I'm fine, just some nuances.
     
  7. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2015
    Ratings:
    +162 / 0 / -0
    Yes, the AI is too fast in qualifying / too slow in races right now.
     
  8. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Ratings:
    +154 / 0 / -0
    Chang is particularly bad!