Morning Pals, Usually I dont have a problem creating a working setup, but this combination gives me the creeps, espacially the left front, which is constantly dying on me. Currently we are repeating the real DTM-races of 2016 in a virtual setting, meaning we are racing on all tracks of the real DTM with the real settings. So we'll have a race over 40 minutes without a mandatory pitstop, and a race over 60 minutes with a mandatory pitstop. And to be honest, I have no clue how to setup the Merc, so the front left will survive 40 minutes aka ~27 laps, because nothing works! So what have I done so far? First I used a very stiff setup, with springs 250/200, stiffend ARB, camber set to -4.0/-3.0 and pretty low toes, afair -0,19/0,10. Front left went yellow after five laps, started overheating soon afterwards, orange after ten laps and got punctured after 22 laps. Lap times dropped from mid 31s to high 35s. OK, this setup worked for a while, but it was eating the tire. Time to go soft and for testing only I went ultrasoft: Spring 90N/mm at the front, ABR 190/100 N/mm, camber down to -3,2/-2,2, toes untouched. Guess what, front left went yellow after 5, orange after 9 and was done after 22 laps, lap times were a lill bit slower. Front left was completely overheating again. So I got a liitle bit peeved, switched back to my stiff setup, with camber adjusted to -4.5/-3.5, a maximum front toe-in of -0,50 and a rear toe-in of 0.50. And again, yellow after 5, orange after 9, punctured after 22. Everytime I've used a rear wing set to 7, the car was always at the verge to overstear, only to reduce understearing. So first I did everything to decrease tire wear, wasnt working. Just for fun I forced an increased tire wear with this stiff setup, the extrem camber- and toe settings, and nothing changed at all. Any ideas? And No, going slower cant be the solution. I've even tried that, doing mid 34s to low 35s, and had to call a tow truck after 22 laps again. And the tire wear should be checked, because imho it's a lill bit to aggressive.
Yes, all had similar problems. Best thing one was able to do were 24 laps, but he was constantly around half a second slower per lap. All in practice btw. At the second stint I saw a tire temp of 123°C front left, so I've tried to go slower for two laps, just to reduce the temp again. Well, it went down ... to 122°C. Personally I have the feeling that either the tire pressure is completely wrong, because I've never seen the temperature increase that fast, or there is something wrong with the tire degretation. We did Hockenheim, Spielberg, Lausitz- and Norisring so far, and I've never had that high tire temps before.
The slower cooling is intended I assume as the tyre temp is supposed to be a core temp, not the compound surface. Might be connected to the grip levels of the track surface then. I'll have a look and mention it to the peeps who handle this stuff. Just be sure, race setup was default, so tyre wear was set to standard (1x)? Thanks for your report, always welcome.
Yes. I was the host, and I rechecked to be sure. We all know this sandpit has a really rough tarmac and isnt tire friendly. But it looks like it is a lill extreme. I know, BUT Tire temp is going red above 110°C (RS Dash), so 123°C is really high.
Had a go in the Merc, default setup, and being very conservative (1:34-1:35 laps + avoiding kerbs) I was able to make it last longer, but it was gone after about half an hour. And I have a very tyre preserving style anyway so I can see how it will burn away faster if one is trying to go competitively. So I tend to agree, will need to investigate further, but I'll report it. Thanks again.
123 Celsius will cause Crew Chief to have a total melt-down, so I agree that this is unexpectedly high
There is a bit of a discussion going on between testers behind the scenes at the moment about this very subject so I've had a test. Using Single player: Practice, DTM '16 Mercedes #3 @ Zandvoort with 2x tire wear, normal fuel use, a full tank and default setup. Got 12 laps before my left front was gone, highest temperature I saw was 111 degrees (also on the left front) and that was only after I hit a flashing red tire, so, heavily worn. Fastest lap was a 1:33.0xx and for the most part, I stayed within about 1.2 seconds of that. Recorded the test here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128883600 @Pfalzdriver Could you let me know exact settings you were using, single player, MP fuel use, tire use etc and I'll try and recreate properly. Thanks. Dave.
Gave this one a shot today. Didnt have time for a 40 min race... so I did a 15 lap race with 2x tire wear. This would translate to 30 laps on normal tire wear, or thereabout. Race took me around 23-24 minutes. So, with 1x tire wear, This would mean my tires would last around 46-48 mins. With 2x wear, and a 15 lap race... I completed the race. My front left finally popped on the final lap, after the final corner about 500m from the finish line. So, 40 mins on normal tire wear should be possible. I did this in a race session by myself, (no AI) and was racing at a pace of 1:32.8-1:33 for the first ~10 laps, and then at a pace more near 1:34 when my tires were starting to wear heavily and lose grip. Halfway into my 11th lap, my front left tire was 105C. On my 14th lap, this is what tire wear looked like. So, it seems this depends heavily on driving style. If you are fighting heavily for position, your tires are going to wear sooner. Also, dont use a high steering lock. This will only make your wheels turn further and exacerbate tire wear. For a setup, I just did my normal DTM setup. No idea if it was good for this track. 3 clicks softer front springs, 2 clicks softer rear springs, 1 click softer front ARB, 1 click negative front toe (-0.19 i think), bit more rear camber, 2 clicks lower wing, and 1 click lower front ride height. Ahh, this was in the BMW though. But I dont believe the tire physics are different between models.
I think 2x tire wear could distort your result, since you have less time to gain heat in tire, which means it will be lower, which could make it last relatively longer. Now it depends if/how temperature affects wear.
That's a fair point I suppose. Though, Im not sure how much tire temp actually affects grip or wear. Seeing as how they start out at 95C and only get up to ~105C after 15 laps for me on 2x tire wear... I dont think this would have much worse impact if I did 1x tire wear and ran 25 laps. Did another race in the Merc. 15 laps, 2x wear, ~45L fuel. Same setup tweaks as mentioned above. This time I completed the race without a puncture, and my overall lap times were faster throughout the whole stint. Best lap of 1:32.3. Running ~1:33 for the first 10 or so laps, and then a bit higher for the final 5. Completed the race with a time of 23:36. I dont think this is the issue. As far as I know, tire pressures are fixed at optimal from the very start of a race to the finish. Perhaps this will change in the future if this gets more fleshed out.
No problem, Dave. MP, Fuel use set to normal, tire wear set to normal. After my stiff setup didnt really work in terms of lasting tires, I went extreme soft and created this one: I was able to do 21 laps during pratice. We had a 20min race afterwards, I've used the setup above with 37 liters of fuel, at the end my front left went orange and was down to 38%. So again it wouldnt have last 40 minutes. I know I was sliding, though this setups imho tends to be very lose at the rear, but you cant be fast without using the entire grip. And as you can see in the video above, I'm driving a steady line imho, just minor corrections to get my rear back in line. One guy of us is able to keep his tires alive, he did 32 laps with one set, but noone of us was able getting even close to this amount of laps. I think maybe its due to the low brake pressure he is using, afaik 85%, but I didnt had the time to run a test myself. Though I really never had the feeling my fronts are blocking. Front left was at 115°C at the end, but as I mentioned orange only. The temp would have spiked for sure a couple of laps later. And basic rule, the higher temps the higher wear. I was never a tire whisperer, but my biggest problem in this case is the fact, the setup seems to have literally no effect on the tires. Using a brutal stiff setup kills, a supersoft kills too. Massive camber and toe and they die, nearly no camber nor toe and they are also killed. I even changed the brake balance from 58/42 to those 56/44, nothing changed. I tried 54/46 too, but the car was always spinning under heavy braking, even with max rear-toe, so I refused this again. I've also tried reducing the ARB by another 5 clicks front and rear, to get even softer, again no effect. So my personal problem isnt really the fact I'm slaughtering my tires, but the fact I cant counteract with any settings.
Curious, did you use 7 wing the entire time you were testing? Or did you use different wing values in different test sessions you ran? Perhaps with your wing being so low, you are forced to rely on your tires for more grip than what would be considered ideal. I dont think Zandvoort is really a low DF track, so perhaps you just need more aero to do the work for your grip on track compared to relying on the tires to provide all the grip.
I did all sessions with wing 7, because I'm way slower with a higher wing setting. When creating a setup I always use leaderboard laps to adjust the car to the max possible performance I'm able to handle. It's never alien-like but enough not to be the slowest horse. Afterwards I always start a practice session, checking how different fuel levels affects both tires and handling overall. This method always worked ... until now. Hmm Nate? This doesnt sound logical to me. Within the DTM only the rear wing is adjustable, so more rear wing leads to an increased downforce at the rear, but not at the front. With more downforce at the rear more pressure gets applied to the rear tires, which leads to a more stable rear while braking and cornering. On the other hand, with more DF applied to the rear, the front should get more lose, which leads to an increased understeering, which leads to even more tire wear at the front. Thatz the way I've learned it. But I'll do a testrun with more aero this evening for sure, because maybe I'm completely wrong.
Supplement: I just found this video from our own @Georg Ortner, his setup is shown at 1:35. Wing 8, massive toe both front and rear, front springs a lill bit harder like myself and excessive camber. Fracking fast and nearly no tire wear. You guys are killing me. Guess its DTM 2015 though, but the differences shouldnt be that big.
aero is a complicated business but it's not uncommon for changes at one end to have knock-on effects at the other - perhaps increasing the DTM wing also increases the front downforce on the real cars through the vagueries of aero magic? Regardless, I do think the tyre heating and wear would benefit from a bit of a review. 2x wear with 20 minute races seem about right - 20 minutes pounding round Lausitzring is really marginal but the heating seems about right and the tyres are as knackered as you'd expect by the end. The same race at Norisring is much much easier on tyres, which again seems OK to me. But this thread suggests that 40 minutes at 1x wear isn't really possible from a set of tyres
Right now at least not for me. Others might be able to accomplish that task, and I just wanna figure out how. We already did this beasty track and I had no problem keeping my tires alive. They werent the best at the end anymore, but this had to be expected, but they werent exploding all the time. I'll do a run with Georgs setup this evening too. Maybe he knows what he is doing.