Fanatec Podium Series

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Gopher04, May 31, 2018.

  1. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    does anyone know how many ppr/cpr the Podium will feature? or do they hold back this information?

    To have an idea what's the range with modern wheels:

    Thrustmaster T300, TS-PC etc is talking about 65.536 values, but doesn't state if this number is for 1 revolution or the whole 1080°. My guess is that it gives 65536 vaules for the whole steering range so it would be 21.845 cpr

    I find no information about this on the Fanatec website, but they also use HALL sensors, the CSW2.5 uses two of them. So you could say it's in the same region like the Thrustmaster wheels.

    Logitech G29 / G920 same.

    Leo Bodnar Simsteering 2 has 2.000.000 cpr if I remember correctly
    Accuforce Pro V2 has 64.000 cpr

    Newest OSW Simucube builds have 4.200.000 cpr

    So where's the Podium? According to testers it has really low cogging, they also compared it to a Simucube, but it was not stated which encoder the Simucube used. My guess is that it used the SinCos encoder with 2.000.000 cpr (like the Bodnar one), because the new Biss-C encoder with 4.200.000 cpr is only used in the newest build for a few months.
    Since cogging depends on the anchor and the number of magnets in the motor itself, it's a hardware related thing and I don't know how much a high resolution encoder compensates this cogging effect. The Simucube Small MiGE also should be less prone to cogging than the Large MiGE, since they both have same anchor and number of magnets but the Small MiGE having them on a smaller diameter.
    I read many reports of people saying that cogging gets less when changing to a better encoder, but since I only used the 4.2mil Biss-C encoder I have no comparison myself. But I don't feel any cogging so I don't really have to care in the end.
     
  2. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    What the hell are you meaning with all that stuff? o_O I don't understand half of this.... but I would like to know what is ppr cpr? even google and wikipedia combined couldn't help me with that :confused::confused::confused:

    The higher the number the smoother the wheel? All I know is that the podium must be much smoother than any other dd right now, thats where they had their focus (they said) and a lot of people at the nürburgring showroom had confirmed this.
    The other wheels for comparison were setup by own people from each respective company.
     
  3. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    cpr and ppr is the resolution of the encoder which sits on the motor shaft and sends the position of the shaft to the software on your PC.
    cpr means counts per revolution and ppr means pulses per revolution. 1 pulse contains 4 counts. A higher number means that the software on your PC gets a more precise and accurate information about the shaft position of the motor..which translates into the game.

    Why do you "know" that the Podium must be much smoother? Because they said it?

    That's why I said that we don't know which encoders they used in the other DD wheels at the comparison bench because there exist older encoders with lower cpr and new encoders with much higher cpr.

    And no, the DD wheels weren't set up by people from each company, it was people that use these wheels at home and had knowledge of how to set up the profiler/tool etc. (there comes a saying to my mind: never trust a statistic that you didn't falsified yourself)

    I also think that it doesn't really matter if you use a 2mil cpr encoder or 4mil cpr... both is insanely high.. the difference would be noticable between 50k cpr and 2mil cpr/4mil cpr... so what if fanatec got an OSW mige with Argon drive+MMOS and not Ioni Pro +Simucube like the new ones? The older Argon builds have a 20k cpr encoder, that's not very smooth. So that's all just poking around in the dark.

    I was at simracing expo 2018 but didn't test the bench. I only tested the Podium for a short time at their booth, and by the time I didn't have my Simucube yet. It was very smooth indeed and very little cogging.
    But after I got my Simucube I was relieved that it was smoother AND I felt no cogging at all.

    And cogging is the main enemy of DD wheels.

    I think Fanatec will bring a good product which will be a good alternative to the expensive Bodnar simsteering, but also for people who already have a good amount of fanatec rims that they can continue to use with the Podium bases.

    My conclusion just is, that it will not be the messiahs some people think it will be, it will be a good DD-base for a fair price.

    My personal gripes with the Podium are:
    - we still don't know how it performs over a longer period of time, will it break after 6 months? They already had problems with faulty Podiums.
    - the electronics are integrated in the case, when something is broken you have to send it in. (with simucube you have a seperate case with the electronics where you can swap out or even UPGRADE every single component)
    - with the integrated electronics it is way too big for my taste, it will be more of a challenge to hide it under/behind the monitor
    - limited to the fanatec ecosystem? Will it accept third party/custom wheels?


    We can make a thread about which DD base is better when they finally released the Podiums and some reviews and opinions of users come in. Also we need to wait how reliable the new hardware is, you just have to think of how much trouble some people had with CSW bases or the McLaren GT3 wheel. ;)
     
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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  4. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    I should have said ''heard'' instead of ''knowing'' ;) :D
    Thanks for explaining, didn't even know/think about things like that.
    Let's wait and see, maybe somebody from Fanatec will answer to that question. :)
     
  5. KudBkuik

    KudBkuik Member

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    The difference between encoders is reduced above a certain point to where the gains are pretty much undetectable (Diminishing Returns on Investment).

    With the OSW, I went from a 5k to a 10k encoder (40000ppr), and that step up could be felt in the smoothness of the FFB. Sometime later, I installed the SinCos encoder (2,000,000ppr) and the improvement in FFB was harder to feel but, less filtering was required in SimuCube to achieve the desired results. Moving up to the BISS-C encoder would again, reduce the filtering needed but, that's about all.
     
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  6. DomB

    DomB Fanatec

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    Encoder resolution is not something we are detailing, as we believe it is a misunderstood and misleading spec point. There are many factors that contribute to the smoothness and precision of the Podium series.
     
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  7. Barracuda318

    Barracuda318 Member

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    so the resolution is SO bad you are embarrassed to tell us what it is?
    and it doesn't matter because we are too stupid to understand it anyway?!?!?!

    well MY respect for Fanatec just hit ZERO
     
  8. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    wow, that escalated quickly.
     
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  9. DomB

    DomB Fanatec

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    I'm sorry that you deem my answer to be inadequate, but please consider that the easier alternative for me was to not reply. You have misinterpreted my words to an extreme degree.
     
  10. Barracuda318

    Barracuda318 Member

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    not replying may have been a better option than insulting your customer base
    however actually answering the question would have been the best option
    along with an explanation as to why you chose said resolution (whatever it is)

    and for the record, I just put your answer in a more accurate light, albeit less polite and not very politicly correct
    your answer was insulting to the intelligence of the sim racing community, and as such it deserved a quick harsh response
    I stand by my words, and make no apology,

    so you can educate us on the subject of encoder resolution, and answer the question, thereby increasing respect for Fanatec, or continue in the belief that we are incapable of understanding it, and remain silent, it's your choice
     
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  11. FormelLMS

    FormelLMS Well-Known Member

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    Is it only me who understands Dom's answer in another way?

    I think he said, that encoder resolution is misinterpreted by the community and not the whole thing. Fanatec is getting the smoothness out of the podium series with other things than only the highest resolution.
     
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  12. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    there's smoothness of the motor and smoothness/precision of the steering in the game. With the first one the encoder cannot do much about it and is defined by the motor "architecture" (speaking of cogging), the second one is encoder territory.
    But I cannot get around the thought that a high resolution encoder combined with a good software can overcome some shortcomings of the motor.
     
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  13. DomB

    DomB Fanatec

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    You've made incorrect assumptions there, Barracuda318.

    That's correct.

    That is possible, but as we designed our own motor from scratch, we've avoided potential shortcomings in many different ways (including ensuring that the encoder resolution is high enough).

    The real challenge of creating a good direct drive product is designing a motor with low torque ripple, low cogging, and the ability to maintain high torque for extended periods of time.

    The original creator of the OSW project, Bernhard Berger, tested the Podium bases at our community event and wrote a very positive report on the performance, comparing it directly to high-level OSWs. (This is in German, but I can provide the link if requested).
     
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  14. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    To explain it in a different way:
    Nordschleife records:
    NextEV Nio EP9 - 1360PS - 6:45:9 Min
    Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR - 700PS - 6:40:30 Min

    :D
     
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  15. Barracuda318

    Barracuda318 Member

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    THIS is the type of informative answer Dom B should have given in the first place
    along with what he wrote in the post above, thanks for that by the way

    and no, I didn't make incorrect assumptions, as you still have not answered the initial question, therefore the only CONCLUSION, not assumption, is that you have found a workaround and are using less resolution that your competitors
    IF you had equal or higher resolution, your marketing department would be touting it as a selling point,
    I also never assumed that the choice of resolution was a bad decision on Fanatecs part, if it creates a smooth wheel, it is high enough (regardless what the actual resolution number is)

    and you are correct it is a difficult situation, while divulging an unflattering resolution number will be misinterpreted by some people, and used against you by your competition, a clear explanation can go a long way toward fixing that
    however it is the condescending nature of post number 106 that I take issue with, and that can not be so easily fixed
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  16. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    when no FFB signal is sent to the wheel you can feel the cogging on the Simucube when you slowly turn the wheel with one finger (un-energized motor). When you turn it just normally with a hand, you don't feel it. The cogging is gone when there is an active FFB signal.

    I forgot to test this on the simracing expo on the Podium :(


    It's not the performance of the Podium that's worrying me, it's more the long-term reliability of the electronics and the motor parts. Also I like the idea of the OSW that you don't need an extra windows driver because it just uses the standard USB HID and that everything is open source.
     
  17. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    In case you all missed it:

    The Podium DD Bases are delayed to end of April due to a recently discovered serious problem in the electronics. 0,07% of the units produced are affected so far.

    You can cancel the pre-order, but if you wait you get the new Formula 1 2019 Rim that will be released in May 2019 (350$) on top (and if you pre-ordered until yesterday).
     
  18. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    this was pretty shocking at first... I'm glad I didn't sell my Clubsport 2.5 Base.... this would have been the end for me xD
    I'm wondering if the wheel will be the same as the last limited edition with all these switches but just in a different look.
     
  19. sbtm

    sbtm Well-Known Member

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    i think so... a different colour scheme.
     
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  20. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    Update: In case you have already ordered the F1 2018 steering wheel or you want a different steering wheel you can let the Fanatec sales team know and they will send you a voucher for the same amount so you can use it on a different steering wheel.