FFB Guide - December 2019

Discussion in 'Knowledge Base' started by Thomas Jansen, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    So with this new update FFB has changed quite a bit, which is why we revamped all the default controller profiles. Ofcourse FFB is highly subjective, so some people might prefer a slightly different mix and different wheels might require some tinkering in terms of overall strength. We can only test on the few wheels we have (Fanatec CSW V2.5 for me), so here are some tips on how to get the most out of your wheel:

    1. Go to the default controller profile for your wheel in 'control settings' -> 'controller profiles' (you will have to re-bind your buttons)
    2. Make sure you are using normal settings in your wheel driver. Keep damper settings on in the wheel driver, as this only means it uses the damping forces that come from the game, it does not add damping by itself. Forcing these off can break some of the effects, such as the new stationary friction, as that is mostly damping forces.
    3. To dial in the overall FFB strength, I would advise driving one of the modern GT3 cars, the GT3R 2019 for example. These cars are the most recent and have the most representative default FFB multiplier (make sure you reset this FFB multiplier to default in the setup menu of the car). Toggle the FFB graph on (you have to keybind a button to it), so you can see if the FFB is very low or clipping at any point. Drive on a track with lots of curbs and bumps, I would recommend Nords or Bathurst. To adjust the FFB strength I would advise to only change the 'Steering Force Intensity' for now. On weaker wheels you probably want to aim for about 80% sustained force in corners, this gives you close to the maximum detail, but still leaves some room for bumps etc. before it starts clipping. On stronger wheels you should simply dial the Steering Force Intensity in to a point that you feel is a comfortable strength, which is pretty subjective anyway.
    4. Now your FFB should be nicely set up for pretty much all cars in the game, but there will always be some outliers, which you can tune individually with the FFB multiplier in the car setup menu when needed.
    5. If you're still not happy with the feeling, I'd suggest to first give it a bit more time, to see if it is just a matter of getting used to it. This is usually the key with FFB, as going to new settings is a bit like learning a new language, you have to learn what the FFB does for certain situations in the car and you will adapt to it over time.
    6. It might still be that some of the settings do not translate over to some wheels well, so I will explain some of the settings we used and what my recommendations are:
    Force Feedback Damper
    Damping is usually quite a controversial topic in simracing, though it definitely shouldn't be. Quite often people will say it gets rid of details, but that is only really the case with too much damping. There will always be some damping present on a real car, because of the inherent damping of the components, the gyroscopic effect of the wheels and in many cases the power steering, so having some damping is definitely realistic. I would argue that it also makes the FFB more precise, however, contrary to what many will believe. The reason for this is that having a very underdamped wheel will tend to 'overshoot' in quick corrections. Say you are turning with the wheel 45 degrees to the right, then you get a snap of oversteer for which the correct amount of countersteer would be turning the wheel 45 degrees the other way. Both you and the FFB will start accelerating the wheel to that point, with very little resistance because there is basically no damping, so the rotation will be very quick. By the time you reach the correct countersteer angle, the FFB will start pulling you back again, but at this point it's already too late as the wheel is still moving fast, so you will overshoot the correct angle and countersteer too much. This is how you end up in the opposite wall after a snap of oversteer! Ofcourse you can simply learn to correct this yourself by slowing down the wheel in time. However, by adding some damping, the FFB is much more controlled and you will be able to do this based on feeling much more easily, rather than relying on memorizing how much countersteer you need exactly. Another added bonus is that your wheel is much less likely to go out of control when letting go on a straight for example, which tends to happen simply because of the way the wheel is disconnected from the car by processing delays. The difficulty with this setting comes with the differences between wheels, some wheels have quite a lot of inherent damping, or even have settings to control this damping. (such as most Fanatec wheels, with the DRI setting, which I keep at -1 to keep the damping forces mostly controlled by the game).

    Force Feedback Minimum Force
    This setting should not be necessary for most mid-high end wheels, from Fanatec and Thrustmaster etc. It is mostly meant for the weaker wheels such as the Logitech wheels, which can't output the small, subtle forces. Essentially it amplifies any forces below this setting's % to that higher %. So you can give this a try if you feel like your wheel is not outputting forces when it should be.

    Understeer
    A bit of a misleading name, because this effect is not only to indicate understeer, but more so to indicate where the peak slip angle is while turning. Turning this setting up will make the steering go lighter as you approach the peak slip angle and even lighter as you go beyond it (understeer). I've seen many different preferences here, the defaults should have 10% on, which makes it quite a subtle effect. This works nicely on the newer physics, but it might be a bit too low on older physics, mainly due to the tire physics differences.

    Vertical Load and Lateral Force
    With these two settings it's mostly about the ratio between them. They determine how much influence the vertical force on the tires and the lateral forces on the tires have on the FFB. Having more vertical load will make the feeling of weight transfer, curbs and bumps more pronounced, while more lateral force will stick more to the normal cornering behaviour and the self-aligning forces. A downside of adding too much vertical load is that the wheel tends to oscillate quite heavily on straights, as it ends up in a positive feedback loop where the FFB reacts to the weight transfer, throwing the wheel and therefore the car and weight the other way repeatedly. This can cause the wheel to throw you off the track quite quickly when you let go on a straight.

    Steering Rack
    The steering rack setting is a bit of a mysterious one, it is very dependent on the car you drive, what kind of effect it has. On the newer physics, it will have the intended effect of making the FFB feel more as if it is really coming through the steering geometry, rather than directly from the tires, often making the steering go a bit lighter when turning more. However, it has some very odd effects with FWD and AWD cars on high % settings. This is why we decided to keep it at 30%, to get most of the benefits, but without the negatives. I would not recommend going over 50% with this to avoid those side-effects.

    Other effects
    The various effects are mostly preference based. I would personally avoid the slip effect, as it does not work well with the newer physics, resulting in lots of random vibrations at any time. The curb effect is nice to give the older track models without the 3D curbs the same feeling, will depend on the wheel how much is needed. The shift effect is also very subjective, I find that you can actually feel the shifts already in the FFB with the new pneumatic trail, but some might like it to be a bit more aggressive, so this effect is there if you want it. As a final note, please do not use the spring effect, this just turns your wheel into a rubberband wheel. All it does is pull your wheel to the center, regardless of what is happening in the physics.

    For reference, these are the settings I use on my Fanatec CSW V2.5 and most defaults should be based on this, with some variation per wheel. I have also attached the Fanatec CSW V2.5 default profile (.rcs file), which you can start from if you don't see any default profiles (Be careful on DD wheels, maybe start on lower Steering Force Intensity). The file should be copied into 'Documents > My Games > SimBin > RaceRoom Racing Experience > Userdata > ControlSet' and should then show up in game after a restart. If your default profile is vastly different from this it might be a bug so let us know:

    Force Feedback Intensity: 100%
    Smoothing: 0%
    Force Feedback Spring: 0%
    Force Feedback Damper: 30%

    Steering Force Intensity: 60%
    Force Feedback Minimum Force: 0%
    Understeer: 10%
    Vertical Load: 50%
    Lateral Force: 50%
    Steering Rack: 30%

    Slip Effect: 0%
    Engine Vibrations: 0%
    Kerb Vibrations: 20%
    Shift Effect: 0%
    Collision Effect: 0%

    As I've said before, FFB is highly subjective and very dependent on what you are used to, so there are no 'correct' settings. Feel free to post what worked for you!
     

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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  2. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    T300

    Force Feedback Intensity: 100%
    Smoothing: 0%
    Force Feedback Spring: 0%
    Force Feedback Damper: 30%

    Steering Force Intensity: 75%
    Force Feedback Minimum Force: 2%
    Understeer: 10%
    Vertical Load: 50%
    Lateral Force: 50%
    Steering Rack: 30%

    Slip Effect: 10%
    Engine Vibrations: 0%
    Kerb Vibrations: 40% <--- never higher
    Shift Effect: 60% <--- I just like this
    Collision Effect: 0%

    I am also running everything at maximum in the Thrustmaster control panel. I find this gives smoother FFB than the default gain of 75% and a higher Steering force to compensate....
     
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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  3. pasquale1986

    pasquale1986 Member

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    You are not alone ravey!

    Using the same settings as ravey on the Thrustmaster TX with 80 % Steering Force Intensity
     
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  4. VeryStef

    VeryStef New Member

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    I spent a couple of hours experimenting with the ffb settings after this update but have not reached an acceptable configuration yet. I have two main issues: no grip and exaggerated road effects in my wheel. What parameters would have an effect on this ?
     
  5. RoccoTTS

    RoccoTTS Well-Known Member

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    About the Force Feedback Damper : i see you are using 30% with your Fanatec, but the default setting for TM TX wheel is 0%.
    Is there any difference in using damper for high-end and low-end wheels ?
     
  6. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Definitely as I mentioned in my post, lower-end wheels often have quite a bit of damping just from the construction of the wheel already. Fanatec has this too to an extent, but they have some wheel settings that actively cancel this damping, And the weaker the wheel is, the less the damping is needed, because the forces will never become large enough to go out of control.
     
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  7. Koly™

    Koly™ Active Member

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    Slip Effect: 20%
    Engine Vibrations: 10%

    it's the difference with all the others racing games, rF2, AMS, pCars 2..... we can adjust all the FFB parameters for our best preference.
    Almost perfect
     
  8. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Would have to know a bit more about your wheel and settings that you use before we can suggest something
     
  9. Hervé45

    Hervé45 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Hello
    Do you have settings for simcube 1, mige 20nm
    file RCS ?
    settings simucube 0.50.4 ?
     
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  10. muzikant

    muzikant Well-Known Member

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    `Fanatec DD1...........?? Settings??
     
  11. [RWB] FxUK

    [RWB] FxUK Well-Known Member

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    Small bug: Seems the default profile for the Fanatec DD2 is setup / expects a Fanatec DD1 :D

    My Custom DD2 profile:
    Code:
    DeviceName[00]="FANATEC Podium Wheel Base DD2"
    DeviceId[00]="(462519, -1, -1, 0)"
    Default New profile (Fanatec Podium DD2.rcs)
    Code:
    DeviceName[00]="FANATEC Podium Wheel Base DD1"
    DeviceId[00]="(396983, 14, 10, 0)"
    Something to be aware of, when setting up a default profile again.
     
  12. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Yup, that error slipped into a few profiles, will be fixed :)
     
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  13. alehop69

    alehop69 New Member

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    Is there any default profile for a Simucube wheel..?? Haven´t seen it...
     
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  14. NL-Jos

    NL-Jos Well-Known Member

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    TC-PC Settings Please?
     
  15. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Default is the recommended :)
     
  16. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    It seems there is none indeed, do you see any profiles for other wheels? For now you could try to adapt those for your wheel.
     
  17. Frontkratzer

    Frontkratzer Active Member

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    Default is great for me @ CSW 2.5, just some minor changes per FFB Multi per car. :)
     
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  18. alehop69

    alehop69 New Member

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    I'm trying to rebuild my ffb config, Thomas... Yesterday I was a little bit scared because my old configuration was completely unuseful with the new update... Now I'm just starting to discover how good is it in terms of ffb...
     
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  19. Feimberg

    Feimberg Member

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    First of all, i would like to start saying thank you for all Sector3's team for all their hard work in our beloved game. I loved and admire very much the ambition showed in this update and the clear demonstration of the direction the game is going. It made me and the biggest part of the community very happy with the huge improvements done (Soft day-cycle launch and new damage model was some great and amazing surprises).

    That said, i wouldn't be being honest if i said that i am happy with the Force Feedback topic. I will try to split the discussion in two parts: First what i consider to be non- subjective and severe problems with the current FFB implementation. Than i will enter in what i consider a more subjective part of the discussion and propose a possible solution for both.

    After the update launched, i decided to test the update with some of my favorite and well known cars: Wtcr Civic, Volvo s60, Mclaren 650s, Silhoette car and Fr Jr.
    I use a g29 wheel with default everything. Never touched anything in logitech profile or in-game controller profile. Even so, i deleted the simbin controller folder as suggested just to make sure everything was running as intended. So lets start.

    The objective Part:

    For what i understood discussing the topic with @J-F Chardon and @Alex Hodgkinson in the discord channel, the new FFB relies less on canned and fake effects and more on car physics. What it implies is that each car will feel and react different in the wheel. The biggest and very severe problem with this approach right now is that it is not an euphemism to claim that it broke some of the game content.

    Cars running in older physics model now have ZERO force feedback. Only thing we get is a heavy wheel with zero detail on it. I first noticed and got shocked with it when i tested the Volvo s60. The same problem was described by other users in the Discord channel when trying to use the SLR 722, and even by @J-F Chardon himself admitting that the FFb was weird when he tried racing with the German National cars.

    This kind of content (that is the favorite of many of us, including myself as can be seen in my Raceroom profile with the Volvo s60 being my most driven car) is currently killed. The lack of FFB makes them almost undrivable and rips off all the fun and joy of driving them.

    I think we can all agree that this is a non-subjective problem with the game right now. I got confused with some of the proposed solutions that involved changing in-game ffb settings that i don't understand. Even if it works, we can't mark as solved something that only people very involved with the community can see.

    The Subjective Part.

    I am a bit afraid of the road Raceroom's FFB is going. The reason is firstly because we are discussing changes in something that almost everyone was already very happy with in the game. The FFB was simple and clear. Now it is Car-Physics dependent.

    In MY OPINION, Force Feedback exists primarily to feed us with information that we don't have access to in sim racing: G-forces.

    The first thing that come to my mind when i think of FFB that is different from car to car is Project Cars 2. Ian Bells always defends his title affirming his vision that they have the most realistic and complex and amazing ffb ever, and that people would need to adapt to this modern ultra-high-tech FFB. The fact is that Project Cars's force feedback is it's most hated feature. Consistency was nonexistent and while some cars felt okay others felt terrible. Many of us gave up on the title after a lot of frustration with force feedback. This includes myself. I am a Racerrom player today because my mind exploded when i tested Raceroom for the first time and had contact with it's amazing and clear force feedback. Almost every time i heard someone commenting on Raceroom's FFb was talking about how good it felt.

    Now everything depends on the car. The Force Feedback was cool on FR Jr, Mclaren 650s and Wtcr Civic, but in my opinion, horrible for something like the silhouette cars (and i think it isn't even at an older physics model). I almost couldn't feel anything in the Silhouette car even when riding in the grass. It wasn't as bad as the Volvo s60, but wasn't good either.

    Many of the suggestions being given after the update are in the line of adjusting the FFB car by car. The exactly black hole that all us us got sucked in PC2. People needed to read and search for good FFB settings, download third party-files (Jack Spade's for example), and all that mess. Raceroom other way everything worked wonderfully out of the box.

    But now just look at this topic: The exact type of craziness that i am criticizing. People sharing FFb setups with 20 parameters to adjust. Not very good in my opinion.

    Proposed solution

    I don't know if it would be possible, but one simple solution that could solve the two problems at the same time, was an in-game option to enable the old ffb settings. Something like "Realistic FFb" with the new profiles and "Legacy FFb" to make FFb react the same way it was before the update.

    This way the content running in older physics model could be brought back to life again without the need of rushing implementing newer physics model for them, and would solve the subjective part of the problem too, making the ones that prefered the old FFb with canned effects happy again with one click in the game.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  20. Peter Stefani

    Peter Stefani New Member

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    Typical G920 FFB Set Up
    General Force Feedback Settings

    Force Feedback = ON
    Inverted Force Feedback = ON
    Gamepad Rumble = OFF
    Force Feedback Intensity = 100%
    Smoothing = 17%
    Force Feedback Spring = 0%
    Force Feedback Damper = 38% (Helps minimize the tank slap)
    Steering Force Settings
    Steering Force Intensity = 90%
    Force Feedback Minimum Force = 1%
    Under steer = 70%
    Vertical Load = 60%
    Lateral Force = 46%
    Steering Rack = 9%
    Force Feedback Effect Settings
    Slip Effect = 65%
    Engine Vibrations = 1%
    Kerb Vibrations = 0%
    Shift Effect = 0%
    Collision Effect+ 0%
    TYPICAL In-Car Settings ( FOV = 0.70 )
    Wheel Range – 450 (set by car type)
    Steering Lock – 20 (higher value increases steering rate)
    FFB Multiplier- 1.8 (varies by car)
     

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