Question Hairpin racing line

Discussion in 'Community Support' started by Arcson, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Arcson

    Arcson Well-Known Member

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    Hello racers!

    Probably as every simracer out there who wants to be faster and faster, I'm always trying to keep in mind the basic principles of racing. And there's one of them that confuses me often - the best racing line. I've been studying this for a long time, trying to implement all the techniques into my driving...

    ...and then I come across divergiences.

    As far as I know, the recommended line for taking hairpins looks like this:
    [​IMG]

    Often called as a "late apex" turn. And this is especially true if there's a long straight ahead after the hairpin, as the driver can start accelerating earlier. Not that much true, if there isnt.

    But as I look at some of the fastest guys out there, their line seems to be far from the example above even though theres a long straight in Suzuka after the hairpin. Take a look at Georg Ortner or this guy.

    They say, that the basic principles of racing always stay the same, but in this case these principles just don't seem to work. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  2. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

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    In the Suzuka hairpin, you would lose time with a late apex. In general, you only want a late apex when the corner tightens up.
     
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  3. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    basic principles of racing stay the same, but not all hairpins are the same :D always depends on the exact shape, track camber, approach to the corner etc.
     
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  4. Racki

    Racki Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Just some thoughts:
    these line diagrams always exaggerate a bit. just imagine how wide a racing car is. you would be far off the curbs if you go like that.

    also consider, there are multiple quick lines. another one is the double apex with a v-shape.

    it depends on driving a rwd or fwd aswell (you were seeing Georg in an Audi TT or WTCC?)

    If you are driving a really strong car you would put the apex later because it helps to accelerate. For driving the NSU for example you would rather take care of a high minimum speed in the corner the because this ugly box accelerates like an old cow. You need to drive as smooth as possible and have the apex at the center.

    it is also a question if you are free to drive or go defensive. the image you posted leaves the door wide open for a long time (extremely slow in) and invites for an attack.
    On the other hand you should take this line as an attacker because the guy in front needs to defend so hard that he does not have the best acceleration out of the corner... you have now :)
    you can see this situation in hockenheim lots of times for example.
     
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  5. Jona777

    Jona777 Well-Known Member

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    In your example of Suzuka where the hairpin is cambered on the inside, your better to stick to the inside to maintain grip.
    The extremest example of this would be the Carrousel on the Nordschleife. If you take the line of the OP you would lose a lot of time.
    But there is a lot more to take into consideration like everyone is saying :)

    Theory is always nice but practice often is a little or a lot different in this case.
     
  6. Arcson

    Arcson Well-Known Member

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    Then I guess I shouldn't stick to it no matter what. I know racecraft is a quite complex discipline, also that there are exceptions from the basic theory. I just took it for granted, hairpin + long straight after = late apex, without taking the entry angle into consideration. Finding the best line seems more difficult than I thought, sometimes its really tricky :p

    Like Nurburgring's GP Ford-Kurve. Not a hairpin in this case, but it's not that obvious how to take it correctly
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  7. Jona777

    Jona777 Well-Known Member

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    If i were you i'd take a ride with different cars on tracks like Hungaroring, Twin Ring, Slovakia Ring, Anderstorp, Brands Indy ;),....
    They have more than average hairpin(like) corners which will help you figure it out.
     
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  8. Nir Tal

    Nir Tal Member

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    As said above, slower cars will not gain an advantage of late apex hairpins. From my experience with the game, DTM201X and faster cars could gain (especially cars which have more power then grip) while slower would not, .

    In Hock and Suzuka hairpins i managed to gain few 100th... not more than that, and to get an indication i look at the live delta time before and after the hairpin, and i can see the delta after is increasing (positive) nicely throughout the straight.

    Another factor is the grip level of the inside line vs outside line. The late apex line is based on equal grip between the two but IRL and this is also model in this game, the outside line in hairpins has major drop of grip(dirty). So no advantage to this line in such cases. In Suzuka hairpin this is quite noticeable while in Hock hairpin it is less.

    And there are the off-camber hairpins like in Hungaroring/Sepang where the outside line has very low grip - so late apex will be much slower than just hugging the corner in the inside line.

    Another thing to consider is the differential setting. The hairpin is usually the smallest radius corner in the track and with late-apex u need to make it even smaller. That means u will need very loose diff (preload/coast) setting to take the late-apex tighter turn and this setting could be non-suitable for other corners in the track.
    By that I dont mean u cant take the turn with tight diff setting but it will make u even slower.

    In theory late-apex should be faster but IRL/game, there are very few cases where u can be faster by using it.

    Nurburgring's GP Ford-Kurve - yes its tricky but definitely not a late-apex turn. The entry is not from the outside line so taking late-apex will force u to take a very weird line which will certainly make u slower.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  9. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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  10. Lucas dos Santos

    Lucas dos Santos Member

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    Some hairpins have TWO apexes as saw at 20min08 on the following video:

     
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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  11. Arcson

    Arcson Well-Known Member

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    So the conclusion is not to blindly follow the basic rules but always trying to find more optimal alternatives. Late apex may not always be the best option and also multiple ways of taking the same hairpin effectively are possible. Thank you guys for your response :)
     
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  12. Nir Tal

    Nir Tal Member

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    nice video. i like the "too greedy" on min35 - happens to all of us ;)

    As for the 2 apex - if you look at his fastest lap at the end of the video, you can see he realize 2 apex is slower on that hairpin and eventually he just hugs the apex. Also in the last corner he is not taking late-apex (where he did in the early laps).
     
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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018