I prefer the old FFB

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by neil, Jun 23, 2021.

  1. ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ

    ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ Member

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    I was realy disapointed by the new DEAD NO FEEL FFB!
    After we tested it a lot on FFB Wheels like Thrustmaster,Logitech,Fanatech and Controllers different kinds also DD Whell.
    We decided to stop playing R3E as it does not make fun.
    Everybody was complaining and screaming in Teamspeak it was sad after this long time seeing that it gets worser and worser.
    So a few friends and my self bought Automobilista 2 because it was on sale and we wanted to know hwo good it is compared to R3E.
    It is Absolut worth the money!!
    Don´t know if the Developer here play other Sims but they should try AMS²...
    It is better in everything at the moment throttle control is on the spot, you can hold the throttle in a curve or even play with the throttle.
    Not like here in R3E throttle is just an ON/OFF button. :D lol realistic throttle:D
    Same i thought of the new FFB everything was gone what i loved for YEARS Curbs,manhole covers,asphalt edges and and where gone.
    If you feel a curb it was very weak and every curbs sounds and feels the same like i would use canned effects :(
    Now a few weeks after the patch and tweaking by Sector 3 also changing setting its feels okay.
    It feels like maybe real physics cos of the weight transfer and v.load but with 3 repeating canned effects
    1 Curb (all sound the same brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt)
    2 manhole covers (Sound like Curbs now try Norisring)
    3 Asphalt edges or bump
    The concclusion is R3E is maybe just to old now it is time for Tabula rasa?
    Sidenote: I had the chance to visit KW Automotive and watching a test for a coilover suspension.
    It was super impressiv the technican told me that they have real drive data from the NOS using to test coilover suspensions in every way.
    Looks like THIS
     
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    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  2. Turtle Power

    Turtle Power Well-Known Member

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    I like a few things from AMS2. Yes the FFB is much alive in comparison to the latest R3E. However, AMS2 physics are a complete crap. There something about AMS2 that doesnt feel right at all.

    Raceroom's current FFB is brilliant and I would like to thank Sector 3 for doing a great job. We now have awesome road bumps at Nordschleife and Bathurst BUT, the missing elements like (effects that we used to have) is a bit sad for me too. Without it, it feels lifeless. My favorite sim is still favorite but with a little dissapointment.
     
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  3. ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ

    ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ Member

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    AMS2 just needs a very small tweaking to make it feel right and amazing ;)
    I had just had to lower 2 settings for example than AMS2 was like " WTF AMAZING :eek:"
    The point to me is following:
    As S3 say the FFB for suspenssion geometry is 100% new and real physics but it is only the suspension geometry whats about the rest like crash,damage physics?
    I still can hit a wall with 200km/h and still can drive (where is 100%real Physics?) im still missing a lot of things like bumps on NOS on the Pit exit there is an Aspahlt edge on the left side.But where is it now if the FFB is so brilliant? Or Laguna Seca Turn 7 the yellow suspenssion killing stone.
    Or just the simple fact that you can NOT push a small NSU TT with a 1000HP Group C above a certain speed.
    As the front tires feel like they are somehow speed locked @200km/h (physics?)
    Please dont get me wrong dude
    We where a group of 20 people maximum when driving.
    Now from this group 18 people quit playing R3E only 2 still play R3E sometimes cos they only have small problems driving on Controller and Keyboard.
    When i watch my Steam friends now everybody is on AMS2 or ACC
    It just makes me sad cos i love R3E so much but now... we all bought AMS2
    Because the FFB in AMS ,ACC is so bad thats why we play now 90% AMS2 or ACC and only 2% R3E before it was 100% R3E only.
    As i was addicted to it since 2013.
    AMS2 is not perfect as well(Curbs there also all feel like canned effects) but atm driving in AMS 2 makes way more fun then in R3E.
    Because of the car controlle.

    The picture is showing that im driving over the yellow stone with 130km/h FFB graph shows RED but no forces displayed.
    Also susspension is fine as you can see not even a single scatch.
    Drive over this in AMS2 your susspension is broken
     

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  4. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    The engineers who operate that 4-post rig are only an email away from me. Sometimes we exchange messages to discuss ideas and confirm details of how various suspension systems work.
     
  5. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    If you must do things like that it makes sense that the NSU wouldn't go beyond ~200kph because that's what it's geared to do.

    Put it in neutral.
     
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  6. ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ

    ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ Member

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    Hi there
    We test a lot of hmm lets say strange and funny things when we are on our Server.
    As some drive NSU TT and DTM and Group c and just race for some fun in training.
    So friend driving the Group C was trying to push me in my NSU TT for an Ultra Lap time.
    As i though in neutral it should be possibel to push me above 200 km/h on the straight but does not work he pushes my car over the front tires it just looks so funny :D.
    So we figured out in neutral you can NOT push somone but in a gear its possibel to push lets say a porsche Classic to 265km/h.
    Thats the max the gear allows.

    This sound realy interessting to compare the data they get from the RIG and tranfere it to a game software.
    I would like to ask so many questions when we where there but the guy who showed it to us just tells us some raw data not details :(
    I was there i think it was 2009 or 2010 with a friend who was driving the NSU Hill Climb race here in Germany Jürgen Lätsch but he quit racing after Georg Plasa had the terribel crash.
    But the few hours there convinced me to buy a KW v3 and change my B16 from Bilstein.

    sorry for my bad english
     
  7. neil

    neil Member

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    Physics based FFB= marketing.
    It was a similar argument from SMS about their FFB for pcars2.
    Our FFB is physic based.
    IMO its simplifying something that's actually more complex.
    For example.
    I'm guessing that power steering simulation is not included in this model?

    Personally I miss slip effects & feel when braking. Because i feel it on a real car.

    It's strange decision to leave out those things but include engine & gear shift vibrations. Not that you don't feel, actually i think they are poorly simulated in this game but I think are less important if somethings had to go.

    I would love to see some hard evidence that it actually does make you a better driver with this FFB. That sounds to me more of an opinion than fact.
     
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  8. Enrik

    Enrik Member

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    Sorry for my english. After many hours of testing I like the Ffb in general. The predominant effect for me is the self-allignement, at high speed I can leave the wheel and the car go straight. I would like something more by the asphalt... too much perfect... no wheel vibration or micro correction. It's like a billiard. I dream about something like RF2 where you have to keep the car because asphalt try to put out your car (asphalt imperfection). Sincerely I have rf2 on my PC only for the FFB because RR is a better game and I have all cars and tracks.... in RF2 absolutely not.
     
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  9. Dady Cairo

    Dady Cairo Active Member

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    Man,i love you for that!!:D
     
  10. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    Of course, but you don't feel it through your steering wheel. In that case, something is wrong with your car.

    I can send you my lap times before and after new FFB. They have automagically improved since the new FFB arrived, in spite of lack of practise. Is that evidence hard enough? The new FFB simply feels more natural and intuitive. For me. (Ymmv).

    Again, isn't that just how a properly working real car should behave? The old FFB had bad oscillations when you let go of the wheel, which in real life would mean something is seriously wrong with your car.

    But then, I don't know what kind of cars you guys drive in real life.
     
  11. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Power steering is modelled.

    Pcars 2 lol. That game doesn't even have physics never mind physics based ffb.

    Thanks for your feedback
     
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  12. carlos de hoz

    carlos de hoz Member

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    [QUOTE = "Fleskebacon, publicación: 227101, miembro: 502"] Por supuesto, pero no lo siente a través del volante. En ese caso, algo anda mal con tu auto. [/ QUOTE]


    this is not a real steering wheel so it is necessary to simulate what one feels in the car through a game steering wheel
     
  13. carlos de hoz

    carlos de hoz Member

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    If that's true. Now everything is easier, my steering wheel doesn't feel most of the impacts. You also don't have to concentrate on the steps around curves. Just turn your wheel and practice where you are going to go because there are no forces or oversteer! the reality that on the wheel is not felt!
     
  14. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    If you don't feel oversteer there's something wrong, because I feel it easily.
     
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  15. carlos de hoz

    carlos de hoz Member

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    [QUOTE = "Fleskebacon, publicación: 227101, miembro: 502"]Again, isn't this how a properly functioning real car should behave? The old FFB had bad oscillations when you let go of the wheel, which in real life would mean something is seriously wrong with your car. I don't think letting go of the wheel at 200 km / h is a good idea. be realistic. my real wheel does not stiffen when cornering at high speed. but it is reflected in the ffb of a game. It is reflected like this for your brain to interpret it, the same should happen with the loss of traction, or when passing by a piano and seeing the game booth as it rotates and in my ffb nothing happens, I suppose why my steering wheel does not really should I feel anything? now it is realistic ffb !!!! there is some reality in the sims ffb !!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  16. carlos de hoz

    carlos de hoz Member

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    I wish it were true. There is something but very subtle more than any other sim. If I have them all and this was my favorite. something else is missing. Now I have been able to fix with the bodyshakers. but honestly it does not become immersive.
     
  17. Enrik

    Enrik Member

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    When we talk about "real car".... yes is different to the game. But in a game you need some (artificial?) effect because you haven't feedback from the seat or others real part of the car. I like the kick's gear but many people said "is not real". Also the game is not real. I'm not expert, I don't know which forces are real or not. I know only what I like. When I drive the ugly RF2 expecially the Lambo LP 670 combined in old Spa '60 I think "this is a real car in my hand". Is real? I don't know but wow! The best sensation I have in RR are in Nordshleife. For many bumps and kerbs, up and down? I don't know. Probably the springs work more and you feel more the car.
    P.S. for @Fleskebacon
    I drove many cars in my life (unfortunately I'm not a young boy) but I don't know if this mean something.
     
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  18. ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ

    ⅀ℕiↅϻΔ Member

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    THANKS!!
     
  19. KudBkuik

    KudBkuik Active Member

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    Yes, there is no substitute for reality, only imitation.

    It's one thing to prefer minimal ffb effects for competitive reasons but, I cannot understand why so many seem to be against immersive ffb effects being offered. The "reality" in ffb argument doesn't stand on it's own because none of it is real no matter how hard developers try. And those that don't want "fake effects" can turn them down / off.

    I left the AC community when Kunos removed the additional ffb-effects in ACC. I've never got on with the new title despite investing many hours trying to tune and accept ACC ffb for what it is. It's nice that it works for some but, sad that they removed the ability to adjust the scrub (tire-slip) effect. Ironically, they removed an effect that actually does exist in reality although, less so with slick tires. I've experienced tire scrub (vibration) in RL auto-cross events (multiple cars / different tires) under both dry and wet conditions, so it does happen.

    The only issues I had with RR (old ffb) was that some canned effects either introduced "noise" (ticks / jolts) into the ffb signal or were not very dynamic (engine vibes) in how they were applied. The tire-slip effect worked well enough to indicate front grip-loss but, seemed to be triggered a bit early in the slip phase.
     
  20. Enrik

    Enrik Member

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    Difficult to explicate. As I said RF2 has something more. You "feel" the asphalt. The imperfection of street move your steering wheel and you have to correct with micro-movment. When the car start to slip you understand immediately and take a correction. In RR i drive well (expecially F3, F4, Gt3 and DTM) but there is something too flat. These are only friendly discussion because I love RR and, I repeat, hate RF2 for many reasons (impossible loading official tracks, bad graphic/immersion and other things) but FFB is amazing.