Is the lift off steering in wtcr too much ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by benoityip, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. benoityip

    benoityip Member

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    I start playing the wtcr for the last few days. I have gathered a few references to show why I think wtcr in the game has too much lift off oversteering. I don't have many wtcr references, but I will provide fwd cars in general

    Zandvoort wtcr, no left foot braking even in high speed corners


    Nordschleife, no left foot braking in a Honda dc2 in the high speed left turn at 2:15. In raceroom, this corner is very easy to spin out in wtcr even with left foot braking.


    Macau Mandarin corner, Honda dc5r left foot braking and lift off 1/5 full throttle at 0:29, the car is still very stable. In raceroom wtcr , the tail slides a lot


    Macau Mandarin corner again in a wtcc car, he mentioned very light brake and little oversteering
     
  2. RoccoTTS

    RoccoTTS Well-Known Member

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    About first video : this is a video from last year where Tom Coronel didn't use left foot braking.
    Here are a few comments from Tom after his 2018 seasons :
    “I said where can I improve and that’s left-foot braking, so I’ve got a big simulator which I still go ill in sometimes, and I’m learning.”
    “I was different also on the braking, so I just said to myself ‘left foot braking, this is it’. It’s the first year that I’m doing left-foot braking. I started with that in my first test when I went out at Zandvoort and that has caused me some headaches – a few flat-sports here and there." (source)
     
  3. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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  4. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

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    The amount of oversteer heavily depends on your rear wing setting with the new WTCR cars.
     
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  5. benoityip

    benoityip Member

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    I also set to maximum rear ring and minimum rear anti roll bar. The lift off oversteering is very difficult to control in corners greater than 200km/h. To be honest, I would like to have more rear wing. I am in wtcr 2018.

    I personally want the car more customisable in terms of lift off steering, in some circuits, I would not want huge lift off oversteering

    I can left footing braking in the game especially I drive frx17 cars in the game.

    I also experience bad lift off oversteering in the wet in my road car. It depends on how thick I choose my rear anti roll bar
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  6. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    You're too focused on left foot braking, when in reality you should really be focused on weight transfer. You cannot get the rear any chance to step-out while it is unloaded (because then it has really no grip).

    You don't need left foot braking for TCR cars, you just need to do exactly what you can also see in the Tom Coronels video - brake in a straight line, and apply at least little bit of throttle in fast turns (so you don't start to engine brake). It is really nice to see in that video between turns 9 - 11. Toms wheel is pointing straight the moment he gets anywhere close to the brake pedal.
    Also on turn 9, he brakes the cars before the turn, and then applies throttle through the turn.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  7. Patrick van der Meulen

    Patrick van der Meulen Well-Known Member

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    Balancing weight transfer is key with WTCR cars. As @Winzarten says: brake in a straight line, avoid tailbraking and control the cornering with the transfering weight. But apply throttle on corner exit with caution, because a little too much throttle will cause massive understeer on corner exit with front wheel drive cars.

    And for setting the car up, adjusting suspension, ARB, and differential will change the behavior drastically. It can make the car much more predictable. But when you are overdriving the car, it will punish you quickly and hard. That last is still kind of my fate with these cars :D.
     
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  8. Kondor999

    Kondor999 Member

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    Now, this just a theory and I am not saying this is what's going on with the OP, but I've gotten into forum arguments plenty of times with people who play a lot of AC. People coming from AC (and who here hasn't played it to death?) have difficulty when they realize you can't/shouldn't left foot trail-brake with every single car ever made.

    That's an issue with how AC handles weight transfer to the front tires, and if you play enough AC, it'll teach you to do things that would cause a lot of cars IRL to instantly spin out on corner entry (just like the OP's IRL car does, as he notes). Trail-braking a nose-heavy car on every corner (the rears lock up and that's a spin) is usually a bad idea, except in specific circumstances (like a low-speed chicane). Trail-braking is not something you want to be doing constantly - and especially in a high speed corner. If anything, you want to have some throttle in there to keep the rears loaded (especially in cars with a loose diff). All of that is hellishly accurate in Raceroom.

    PS - The new RSS GT-N cars for AC have correct physics, and instantly people were upset that heavy trail-braking caused the cars to be wickedly unstable on corner entry. Welcome to IRL ;)
     
  9. bearr

    bearr Active Member

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    much lift off? look 7-30
     
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  10. Paul Darke

    Paul Darke Moderator Beta tester

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    Me.
     
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  11. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    @benoityip sorry my previous response was just a video with no comments/context.

    To begin, I've never driven a TCR car but I have driven Clio Cup cars a lot, and I have several friends who have raced TCRs in the 24hr series. Useful for taking notes and throwing ideas about with.

    I considered very carefully how the cars should behave off throttle and I feel like I got really close. It's really important that you watch videos of TCR cars when trying to glean their behaviour and not any other generic fwd car. Much in the same way you wouldn't watch videos of MX5s when you're trying to figure out how a GT1 should behave. Having said that, trying to learn from videos is indeed quite a limited exercise. Without a proper data trace set to paw through, you're only getting part of the story.

    When you mention left foot braking, in the context you're using I think you're referring to braking with your left foot so your right foot can keep a little throttle on. Is that right?
     
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  12. GooseCreature

    GooseCreature Well-Known Member

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    FWD requires right foot control, brake in a straight line then steer with your right foot, other than the NSU I am on the brakes the least in a WTCR car.
     
  13. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    I love how these cars behave; to master it its like doing a gentle dance between thottle and brake witha little bit of controlled chaos thrown in for fun.

    The default setup for these cars are great as well. The first thing I do is to see how low I can go on the rear wing before I loose it on the high speed corners; the oversteer in any corners that you can take in 4th gear plus is greatly effect by and easily dialed in with the rear wing.

    Then I focus on the slow corners using the ARB and Dampers and brake balance

    I'm a left foot braker which which means I can dab the breaks without lifting fully off the throttle and it means I can gently brake on turn in if I want that nose to turn in a bit more. Left foot braking stablises the car but when doing so I only very gently dab on the breaks.

    I just tried right foot braking and OMG I would have to change everything about the way I approach corners, low and high speed. I kept losing it big time and just couldn't beleive the difference it made!

    Once you learn to use the lift-off oversteer it's something that you want to even dial in more as it gives you such great control to get the nose of the car pointing into the APEX.

    ......I'm fricken loving these cars, I think they are my new favorite
     
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  14. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    All this talk about left and right foot braking has me confused. I just always assumed everybody was left foot braking, are there actually people right foot braking here? :D
     
  15. RoccoTTS

    RoccoTTS Well-Known Member

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    Yes, me. I have to because i can't use my left foot due to some medical problems.
    I don't have any problem with the WTCR cars, you just have to adapt your driving style.
     
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  16. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Well yeah thats a special case but if someone has the choice then i wouldnt expect many to go for their right foot
     
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    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  17. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    I would say you are trying to fix with setup a wrong driving habit. ;)
    Better to switch on default setup and fix your driving, eventually by reading some driving courses about braking, turning, weight transfer (there's a lot on internet)... :)

    Edit: in English language I know this free ebook but it's missing a clear chapter on braking.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  18. Jonathan Young

    Jonathan Young Member

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    I think the WTCR 19 cars in R3E handle pretty well, I just don’t like the sounds. They’re a little thin somehow. I think they’re pretty popular to race with, so would be worth spending some time to get the audio right.
     
  19. benoityip

    benoityip Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson
    Very useful reply, and yes I left foot braking with my throttle 4/5 on.

    And hence I like your response so much, it gives me a lot of confidence about this game. It is not hard for me to get used to driving a wtcr in the game, but I cannot imagine in reality at 200km/h, it will be very scary.

    My own real car is fwd and I experienced lift off oversteering before at the track, at 130km/h. it is not that bad. However, at wet, it is very bad, I lost control in every corner
     
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  20. John Brandow

    John Brandow Member

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    Albeit my crappy race car is no where near the level of a WTCR car it is fwd and the rotation in RRE is almost identical. I turn in and hold a very steady line with the wheel. Most of my mid corner turning corrections are done with the throttle. I drive the WTCR cars in game the same way.
     
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