Lack of progress and the evils of teasers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by nickh158, Mar 28, 2015.

  1. nickh158

    nickh158 Active Member

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    I`ve stopped playing R3E now, due to the lack of progress in the core game, and the continual release of videos showing features that are weeks and weeks from release, despite promises which seem to suggest otherwise.
    The whole `soon, `very soon` thing has become an in-joke which many, including me, found amusing.
    However, I just find it irritating now.
    I feel that if more isn`t done to improve the general game experience, there will be many, like me, who will just drift away from R3E and go back to games which are more complete.
    The problem for Sector 3 could be the free to play business model.
    How many people will download the game, play it for a couple of weeks and then decide that it`s not for them, because the FFB is broken, or they can`t even adjust tyre pressures, or because the multiplayer is the same old same old and going nowhere, or because there`s no proper Championship?
    And if that`s the case, where`s the income stream?
    Last September, R3E was in a very bad place: a poor sim with little content and a very expensive "free to play" business model. The following 3 months saw rapid progress, with loads of cars and tracks and a massive change in the central gameplay.
    Since December, we`ve had what, one car, one track and some minor fixes?
    If this snail`s pace of change continues, I find it hard to see how R3E can keep going :-(
     
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  2. Sean Kenney

    Sean Kenney Well-Known Member

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    I agree somewhat, but I am not stopping playing or getting annoyed. The reality is this is what a small team has to deal with and the game being in "beta" one can't expect a finished product. As users we have to give up some things with games in this state.

    The lack of updates since DEC is a bit alarming, but they did move and have the holidays. So, at least there was a reason and it wasn't just them not doing anything. My real concern is what it does to the number of players which to me seems to be dropping, at least in MP.

    The core quality of the game is still present.

    The FTP model puts off a lot of people, but it does work really well if you let it. One can get into a lot of car classes for very little money. The problem is most people won't even touch a F2p game out of principal.

    Tough situation, we seemed to be getting so close and closing the gap sort of speak, but have again dropped a bit too far over the new year. I agree at the current rate for this year the games progress is minimal. Maybe they will blow us away with the next update, but I don't think there are any more "big" updates anymore.
     
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  3. Rodger Davies

    Rodger Davies Well-Known Member

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    Well phrased Sean, couldn't have put it better.
     
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  4. Fairman

    Fairman Well-Known Member

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    I find such statements come across like trying to blackmail Devs/Puplishers out of sheer personal frustration, which in any case is a personal thing that nevertheless is blown up to something "we all are (have to be) concerned by" and as beings who are indeed very much concerned about what others think, mean and do, that appears as tactical maneuvre to get some "backup" for your own frustrations ("All others think that way too, yes!" *Actually nobody asks who exactly does - doesn`t matter anyway cause its about talking things bad getting justification for whatever comes next* .
    If I would only follow what others (or "The Mainstream") think and do about R3E, I could have packed my stuff long time ago and went on playing AC, Cars or whatever.But (btw.) my confidence and enthusiasm is not directed on that which I urgently want but that which I`ve already got (and which often is quickly forgotten the moment I`ve got it) .

    No offense m8 Im just a bit tired of ppl`who don`t set their priorities straight and complaining if their (realistic??) expectations are not met...simply because that way nothing gets better but to get your yearly half-baked "gaming software" (sequel)...at the very least you have a team here that listens to your needs and suggestions...ever been at a Ubi or EA Support Forum ? (Well.........)
     
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  5. Emerson Meyer

    Emerson Meyer Well-Known Member

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    No offense Fairman, but I'm a bit tired as well of excuses like "small team", "vacations", etc, etc, etc, etc.
    I'm in from the very beginning...more than 2 and a half years...

    The "old content" is still there (expensive, by the way)... waiting for a long, long promised update.

    As @nickh158 said, FFB is still broken, no tyre pressures adjust (!!!!!!!!!!), no dedicated servers, and no proper Championship.

    No, enough with "wonderful", "can't wait", "this will be amazing, epic..." after every small video posted by the developers.

    I'm really tired.
     
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  6. FuzzyFassbender

    FuzzyFassbender Member

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    That's a "fair" statement, "man".
     
  7. Patrick Schilhan

    Patrick Schilhan Well-Known Member

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    It’s just a beta version since 2012. If racer / people don’t buy the R3E stuff, Sector 3 Studios can’t expand the company. They did a great job with all the content like the DTM 2013 Exp., DTM 2014 Exp., ADAC GT 2014 Exp., DTM 1992 Pack, … in the last months. The biggest problem is the “Free to play” understanding of the people. Nothing is for free! Do you have any alternatives?

    iRacing / Papyrus = expensive (more than 12€ per race track or race car), bad graphics (looks like a Full HD version of last Papyrus sim: NASCAR Racing 2003 Season)
    Assetto Corsa = no real racing series, few tracks
    rFactor2 = do-it-yourself / fan-made sim, bad graphics
    Simraceway = no real racing series, bad graphics, no community
    Project CARS = no real racing series, release spring 2014, release summer 2015, release fall 2016, …

    Have patience and R3E will blow your mind soon …
     
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    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
  8. heppsan

    heppsan Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    On my behalf, I really like the teases!
    I like to see what they are working on and what I have to look forward to.

    But I'm with you on that the new year have started of quite slow..
    It haven't been much updating apart from some bug fixing, a small livery pack and Sonoma.
    And I think we got spoiled from last year, which was insane all the way from september till christmas!!

    I actually took a small break from R3E, playing some SCE, Formula Truck and tried the AC Dream pack.
    Thinking I have a sweet Group 5 update till I return.
    Sadly I hadn't, but I realised that I do have two awesome experiences to choose from!!
    So I just started a new ADAC GT Masters and then a DTM 2014 Championship.

    We also have this tool in the wait of Custom championships: https://github.com/pixeljetstream/r3e-open-championship


    Maybe the steam store trouble in the start of this year made a set back, or some other problems we don't know about?
    But hopefully they get on track with more steady updates soon, that I know will be amazing!! (And hopefully worth the wait)
     
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  9. Rella

    Rella Well-Known Member

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    Somehow I understand your point of view but from my perspective S3 is on the right way and makes good progress. Also in connection with the integration of Pro drivers and integrating feedback into the game as well as increasing the group of testers makes me feel very positive. The termination "soon" got a negative touch somehow but it's nice to have such a good communication to see what is going on and to show that there is progress. I don't ask for more inside information as they shall concentrate on developing the product as a small team. Of course I also would like to have the announced content faster but I accept the circumstances and prefer well tested content. My main concern is that too many people drop off because they are not satisfied on the short run and this could cause a lack of necessary income. But with the business model I'm totally fine and willing to support the project. You just have to pay for the content that you want and you are not trapped in a model like to pay a monthly fee. In comparison with daily expenses it's imo quite fair for example if I compared it to fueling my car or my other hobby in real world. In comparison to another popular game (that is still in beta from my perspective) I can't complain about the communication or the quality of the content. For example the AI is on a totally different level. Development will need time but I guess Easter will bring some pacification and I hope also the incoming summer will help to fade out the winter blues.
     
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  10. Fairman

    Fairman Well-Known Member

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    I totally understand that and I do not say anything against being frustrated or expressing disagreement.
    I personally decided to wait (until summer last year) though I`ve known about RRE a year before.

    How shall I take it ? Irony or confirmation ?
    If meant as Irony I only can say that my post was about the typical human behaviour to tear others into personal drama (drawing them on your side) by trying to "punish" those (for example!) who you deem guilty or responsible (lame devs, not trustworthy anymore) are now to be punished by announcing to boycott their product` (withdraw your love :D) : which is what kids like to do when they tryin to get something out of Dads and Moms wallet, simple as that. (and in bad case Mom and Dad withdraw their love and attention as well :D)
    Might not sound fair and I just did it myself at the competition thread here (Winning an USB r/pm meter with DTM92) complaining & grumbling about disadvantages regarding sophisticated hardware. My frustration came from my outworn wheel and instead of complaining(and defending my complaints) I better should have made a "reality check" first..redirecting it to where it actually came from....: from a wrong attitude :)
    Just realized nickh158 seems to be on a similar path...
     
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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
  11. FuzzyFassbender

    FuzzyFassbender Member

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    I was basically in agreement.
     
  12. Drei

    Drei Well-Known Member

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    I think what we need is patience. Things not just happens in life. I believe S3S is working hard, but they have their limitations in manpwr, money, licences, whatever... and these are mostly not just temporary issues, they have to deal with theese continously day by day, and not because they are enjoing it, or they don't know haw to manage a company but because this is how real life is atm. Keep whining is easy, to manage a company is not. I'm sure they would like to make all of us happy, and probably one day the will do, but we have to understand that this is not a magic hat to pull out new features, fixes, updates in a second...
    I'm 90% sure that the next update will be released in the next week, with custom championships included, and i would not be surprised it they would squeze in ded servers as well. Hopefully they understand that it is a MUST atm. But if not, they will release it with the next update, when it will be ready. (i have to say they doing a pretty good job on testing, usually new content is not suffering from serious bugs, oh yes and testging takes time as well....what a surprise...)
    And this is not a marriage, if you are not satisfied with the game or the content, you can move away temporary or permanently to another game (no real option imo atm, so not sure you will be happier there tho...), or you can be creative and write a post to Ideas/Suggestions thread with all of things you would change/include in the game, or you can start to develop your own game to show us how that suppose to be done... But please please please stop whining and crying, it is not going to speed up anything, it will not improve the game, it is not going to make us happy, it is just annoying and frustrating... Cheers..;)
     
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  13. Sean Kenney

    Sean Kenney Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is an excuse, being a small team, its a reality.

    I take your point and agree for the most part though. It doesn't matter what the team size is, or anything else, software in beta needs to see progress forward, when it doesn't there ultimately is nothing to excuse that. It either progresses or doesn't. It will alienate users, specifically the ones who have been following it the longest. That is why I don't play beta in a lot of games....users are set up to get annoyed by the the progress and bugs. I don't think I have really ever been in a beta that wasn't annoying.

    Ultimately S3 will suffer from the slow development, if it stays that way, far more then us users.

    :)
     
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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
  14. Sean Kenney

    Sean Kenney Well-Known Member

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    It shows how each game has "issues" or niches....no different than R3E.
     
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  15. Drei

    Drei Well-Known Member

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    I know the solution: they should send their Sector 3 coffee cups to us...

    No coffee cup=no coffe time= more time for development
     
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  16. Rodger Davies

    Rodger Davies Well-Known Member

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    No coffee = no caffeine = slower progress (especially in mornings!)

    In my office at least!

    For what it's worth, I completely understand the OP's point, but I think that we're victims of our clamour for more information. We ask for progress and to see future content but then want to have it right away!

    We were also somewhat spoiled towards the end of last year, with several game-making features and a lot of content, but I get the impression that was the culmination of months and years of previous work that was released at around the same time, possibly because it couldn't be earlier when Simbin were experiencing their difficulties.

    As far as I can see, we're likely going to have a few more of these periods in the future (WTCC / G5 and Championships / Dedicated servers) and I realise I need to adjust my attitude (for all software - see Adobe CS for instance) towards one of constantly evolving products, albeit with peaks and troughs of activity, rather than a single release format.

    I hope this sort of thing won't discourage devs from showing upcoming content and further trailing new features in advance.
     
  17. J-F Chardon

    J-F Chardon Sector3 Producer Developer

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    We'd like to make our roadmap public at some point.I think it would allow you guys to realize what the pace actually is inside the studio.

    We are, as it was said, a very small team when it comes to developers. We have a solid art team but have been lacking programmers. This is changing now that we're hiring.

    The game was in a sorry state that was the result of past decisions that we couldn't live with any longer. But then came a breeze of fresh air in the studio and a new spirit finally pushed the game towards a more enjoyable game, killing all the stupid things one after the other. You might remember the first thing that came out from this shift was back when we finally made it possible to disable the rendering of the corner markers.

    (did you know they were also emitting light to make sure you see them?)
    New tracks don't even feature those at all.

    So yeah, SimBin went down during summer, and Sector3 managed to keep some of the programmers. We had been working on single player gamemode for some time, and some content was stacking up during the dark times of the summer. This is why all kinda came out at once, in a way it was good that it all came out grouped, it sure generated some interest and people started re-installing R3E to check it out. The game seriously needed this gasp of air.

    Now we are working on both features (sharing dedicated servers with you all) and content (WTCC 2014 tracks and cars, and more!), but also engine improvements. Thanks to a nice collaboration with Roal (the guys behind the Chevy WTCC) we are about to release a brand new physics model for transmission, engine and backfires. We have AI behavior improvements coming up, we are also finally getting rid of the orb menu, making novice mode less retarded, we have TONS going on at the moment, and it's not far away now :)

    fab620305bc61686a66caa95528a9713.png
    Really not far away, now.
     
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  18. Rodger Davies

    Rodger Davies Well-Known Member

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    Might sound like I'm sucking up, but it's not my intention, but seriously impressed with that post JF; as I've come to expect from you guys, clear and honest answers to the difficult questions we pose sometimes.

    I can relate to difficulties in finding programmers in this day and age, so I empathise with the search, but the openness is genuinely appreciated.
     
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  19. alesi27

    alesi27 Well-Known Member

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    Guys please do not overreact.Sector 3 are proven to be passionate at what they are doing (Name any company that would shell out the best update on their product on Christmas morning and then check the forums with the community and gather their feedback.None except Sector 3).Probably they have met a few obstacles down the road with the amount of work they are currently dealing but I have the utmost faith on them and I am sure everything will be out when it is ready.So fasten your seatbelts and rev your engines..its gonna be a fun of a ride ;)
     
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  20. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Well-Known Member

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    I just spent $38 on this game. I am very happy with what I got for that amount. Yes, I will still play GTR2 as it has weather, timescaling, deeper setup etc. I still think that those guys did a fairly good job on R3E. I am satisfied with AI, FFB, content, but missing depth.

    I think we are overlooking something here - as much as we all here would like S3S to succeed, reality is that majority of people are elsewhere, spending their money on games not based on real life series (such games have no interest to me at all).

    I can understand frustration of people here - after all some of you are here for years. But sad reality is that crowds demand "GT/Forza" model, and that's where money is.

    I really hope that R3E will go on - otherwise there's nothing to play but old simulators.
     
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