Let's talk about track balance

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skidmark, Jul 1, 2018.

  1. Skidmark

    Skidmark Well-Known Member

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    I admit it. I'm not that good at Road America. I like the track but with default set-up in my Porsche 911 GT3 R, I've had to drop the AI level a few times and I'm still not competitive. :(

    After more than 50 laps of practice at Road America and AI dropped to 100, my best lap was 14th fastest. Not disgraceful by any means but it feels like the AI is very quick here. (I know this is not my best track and I know different driving styles make some of us slow at some tracks where others excel and vice versa).

    So I decided to do an experiment. Having just bought Zhuhai (along with Road America) at the sale, I thought I'd give it a try.

    Zhuhai. AI=100. Porsche 911 GT3 R. Default set up. :cool:

    Sitting on the grid I realised I didn't know whether turn one was a left or right hander. :eek:

    Just brake when they do and follow as best you can.

    10 laps later and I had set and re-set the fastest lap three times. My best lap was 4 tenths quicker than the best AI. And this was literally my first look. :D

    (I even had a couple of minor accidents where I hit the AI that were braking too early for my pace - Nano 10 take note !!).

    Zhuhai is a very different track to Road America and this explains some of the difference. Fewer turns, many of them fast - there's no doubt it's an 'easier' track and suits my style better (if I can dignify it by calling it a style).

    But it feels like the difference is still too big. If I want to do a championship with Road America and Zhuhai, I'll have to set the AI to 110 so I don't win too easily at Zhuhai - but if I do that I'll be lapped in a shopping trolley with a dodgy wheel at Road America.

    I have a similar issue with Sepang - I am very fast there compared to the AI.

    I'm not too sure what the answer is because I know the tracks are tested over and over by better drivers than me and I'm sure the AI levels would be well-calibrated in that testing.

    One solution, at least for championships, would be to be able to set the AI level independently at each selected track. ;)

    Ooh and to be able to select which AI as well. Just sayin. :rolleyes:

    Thanks for reading my long-ish post.

    PS there a joke somewhere that Zhuhai has both huh and ai in the name. Can't think what it is though.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  2. Nano 10

    Nano 10 Member

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    Skidmark, I really regret what is happening.

    Many problems with the AI (lack of balance between circuits, brake very early or very late, push you brutally off the track).

    The whole weekend I was playing Automobilista, a game that is a pleasure since you can set the aggression of AI, there is no difference of the AI between circuits and the most important thing is that braking and acceleration are progressive, everything opposite to Race Room.

    It is demonstrated (as I said many times) that it has nothing to do with the driving style.
     
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  3. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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  4. DonArturo

    DonArturo Active Member

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    someone reeeeally does´t want to learn proper racecraft I presume ;)
     
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  5. Thomas Friedrich

    Thomas Friedrich Well-Known Member

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    ...nothing more to say...!
     
  6. Skidmark

    Skidmark Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Christian - I will give this another try. It's just that I've always preferred the extra control by setting the AI myself.
    I do realise it must be hellishly difficult to get 'track balance' right - because right for one person is going to be wrong for another. I will give adaptive a go though!


    Nano, I couldn't agree with you less.

    The balance issue is not a problem as such. It's something for players to discuss and, if there's a consensus, to be fine tuned if some tweaks would help. That's the conversation I'd like to have - and I'm quite happy to be told I'm just rubbish at Road America, a much more technical track than Zhuhai, and that's the only issue.

    In other words, I am very open to the possibility that it is me that's wrong here. You might get a better hearing for your opinions if you at least vaguely acknowledged that possibility in your posts.


    huh? :confused: (Or are you responding to Nano - in which case it makes perfect sense.:D)
     
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  7. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    @Skidmark

    Adaptive AI is great imo...once you have trained them

    The way I do it is set up a race with just 5 cars with two 5 lap races with a 10 minute qualifying run for each race
    I drive as consistently as I can without fighting the ai or pushing myself to hard...you want to try and get consistent laps in.

    I usually have to do this twice before it starts to get close to the right level
    So that makes a total of 4x 5 lap races against 5 opponents

    When you move to the next track it sometimes seems to adjust based on previous track results BUT it doest vary sometimes which is probably due to the balance problem you noted but again after doing 4x 5 lap races with 5 opponents it gets it right

    Hope that helps
     
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  8. Skidmark

    Skidmark Well-Known Member

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    Yes thanks Matt - I have been giving adaptive ai a go. And your tip about doing several short races is a good one. Thanks.
     
  9. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    It does.
    Whenever you do AI races on a new track, your results are added to the global average.
    And when moving to a new track, the global average is where it'll start.
    Re. the balance-problem, it's two-fold. Not only does the AI like some tracks more than others (mainly a question of the types of corners), but the same applies to the player.

    All of which means that adaptive is your best bet for multi-race events.
    I have found it nigh impossible to dial in a single difficulty setting that results in fun races across the board.
     
  10. .OG Isaac

    .OG Isaac Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    The hard part in Road America, where I lost 2 seconds, is that very long right hander about 2/3rds through. I don't race AI there because I massively lose out on one corner, but am too quick on every other corner on the track.. Makes the racing there dull :( (atleast with cars that don't have enough front aero there to take it hard)
     
  11. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it is fixed yet but at Zuhai the AI is losing most at last turn so that they miss to carry full momentum into Start/Finish straight, causing them to lose a lot of time, cause you can get them very easily there.
     
  12. MrBones22

    MrBones22 Member

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    I had similar experiences at RA at first, but since I was losing so much time in the long right-hander I adjusted my car setup to take that section faster, which made me slower on some of the other corners, but a much more balanced overall feeling and better races with the AI
     
  13. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    What do you adjust to achieve that?
    It’s a problem I have on a few tracks!
     
  14. .OG Isaac

    .OG Isaac Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I haven't been able to figure out a setup for the corner yet :/
     
  15. Skidmark

    Skidmark Well-Known Member

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    That corner is where I lose most of my time too. I just understeer all the way around in the gt3s.
     
  16. MrBones22

    MrBones22 Member

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    I
    It's been a couple weeks, so I can't remember exactly, but I'll check it out again when I get a minute and update.
    edit: I just typed up a huge post about settings, and it disappeared when I had to log back in because it took me so long to type o_O I'll have to try again later...
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  17. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    Cheers
     
  18. MrBones22

    MrBones22 Member

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    I just did some practice with a few GT3 cars, and I found that about the most speed I could exit the corner with (just as you drift out to the left-hand curb on the exit) was 120-121mph (193km/h) and hitting about 130mph (203km/h) as I went under the bridge, then 145mph through the right-hander following that...so if your faster than that ignore my "advice" lol.

    I don't know if it helps or not, but here are some things I do to take away most of the understeer...
    1. Take away as much rear wing as possible, which on this track I was able to get away with 0 Rear wing setting on the GT3 cars I tried (Alpina, GT-R, AMG, R8 Ultra).
    2. Run very low, or the lowest Diff Preload setting. which will let you stay on throttle more without pushing the front end, this could make the car a bit loose in certain situations elsewhere, other settings can fix that if needed.
    3. Front and Rear Toe combinations can make a big difference here. One setting I use is to run very little (close to 0) Rear Toe-in, and run Toe-in on the front (+.25 is a good start). This makes for a more responsive Mid corner feeling and seems to help a lot in this corner. The 2nd option is to add more Rear Toe-In ( -.25 or more) which on its own gives you forward bite and can make the car understeer, but if you couple it with a decent amount of Front Toe-out (again, -.25 or more) it will help the car rotate through corners, and you will have better rear traction. The two combinations feel quite different, so experiment.
    4. Softer front sway bar, or if the car has plenty of rear grip, a stiffer rear sway bar will help weight the front tires.
    5. Camber settings, which can depend on how stiff your suspensions set up is, more is not always better.
    6. Lower front Ride height to keep weight on the front, but in turn, you may need a softer rear spring to help rear traction
    7. Spring and Damper settings, but I'm not the best here...A softer front spring can help, and Lower front Damper Bump setting seems to help the front settle in a bit.

    I don't necessarily adjust things in this order...Hopefully, there's something of use in there lol.
     
  19. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    Cheers mate; I haven't played much with Toe combinations and Camber so that could me what I'm missing
    Thanks for the taking the time to write such a comprehensive list of pointers :)