Dear sector3 team, due to several online racing events during the last weeks, I've decided to create a new post in this forum. Online race situation: On the one hand, players invest >1h for training and qualification to reach a top position for each racing event. On the other hand, a lot of online players are driving very aggresive, because they have nothing to lose and just for fun. This results in massive crashes and non-realistic "car-fights" during the the race and especially in lap 1. Environmental conditions: In the actual build, R3E has a very bad but working damage model for the engine, aerodynamics, and suspension. Accordingly, players can drive in a horrible style without any impact on the physics or status of the cars. Simple & efficient solutions with minimal efforts: -Reduce the threshold values for the given R3E damage model significantly and use a quite simple but efficient damage handling: -for each collision, simply check the speed difference. If this difference is more than 15 kmh: ... motor damage / aerodynamics damage - End of Race (rear-end collision accident) ... aerodynamics damage / suspension damage - End of Race (side collision accident) -introduce race re-start for turn-1-crashes with several cars or massive speed difference -ban / kick players who are responsible for massive crashes (checking speed differences --> there is a huge difference between normal crashes and suicide drivers) -place an info screen at the loading page for each online event --> "ZERO TOLERANCE" for wall-riders and accident perpetrators That's it ... in less than a month, 98% of the online races are fair and the quality of your gaming experience improves massivly. The optimisation of your damage model is a second step. First of all, sector3 has to avoid these kind of situations. Please comment this post. Kind regards, Matthias
Well...this is not the first post like this and will probably not be the last one. Although I appreciate the thought you put in this - it's not that easy as you think. Improving the overall damage model is of course nothing to think about. That's always welcome. But in racing games you can never have an automatic detection of who caused an accident. It's just not possible for binary code to determine what actually has happened. Did driver 1 break way too early or did driver 2 break way too late? This highly depends on the skill level and intention of both drivers. You cannot detect these kind of parameters. Or maybe driver 1 was lagging and driver 2 just couldn't avoid driver 1 anymore when he popped up in front of him. Do you really want to get penalized when something like this happens to you being driver 2? There are a few clear misbehaviours that can easily be detected like standing on the track or even on the race line . Or even worse: driving in the wrong direction. But as long as people are racing and driving in about the same direction, you will never be able to have a fair and automatic "assignment of guilt".
Absolutly 100% Support ....Mad Doc, that´s what many Real Simracer wishes for Years an Months. S3, please hear that.
Hi Arthur, I understand your points, but IMHO there are a lot of clear crash situations, which can be analysed and solved in an automatic way. And the most important point against your arguments: Take a deeper look into the actual situation. With such a weak damage behaviour, it's like driving NFS - using each wall, each car, anything without impact. Be sure, if and only if you introduce a much harder/ more realistic damage impact, you get a better driving behaviour from the players. And in regards to your question: YES, I would accept a false penalty if these rules ensure, that 9/10 race events are fair and better than the actual situation. So please, do it that right way: DO NOT list problems, LIST SOLUTIONS
Guys, what are these comments? Every good Solution begins with a right issue/bug detection! Go on... give us more realistic Simulation features, soon.
I think the main purpose of this topic is to request an adjustment of the parameter for collision impacts to more realistic values. This could be the very first step (and hopefully a short-term solution). AFAIK the R3E physics engine is based on ISImotor2 physics engine and the DMG files should be easy to adjust. Of course ..... investing time and manpower for this implementation needs planning for S3S too. If permanent wreckers couldn't continue their race because of an irreparable damage, maybe a re-thinking about their own way of driving could happen. But as long as these wreckers could drive on with an almost intact car, nothing will change. I'm all for more punishment for collisions, even if you could be a guiltless victim of a crash. But that's racing.
What about the solution another well known sim uses? Incident points! Gather too much incident points in a race, and you're getting black flagged/banned.
Hi Olli, that's another simple but efficient option. Thanks ... so please, Sector3 team - we provide several approaches to optimise these issues ... now it's your turn
I don't see how an impact speed of >= 15 km/h (4 m/s) resulting in an automatic end of the race is supposed to make things more realistic, especially when hitting a soft target like a car, not a wall. I've seen cars drive away from impacts >= 6-7 m/s... What about being pushed into another car or a wall with a speed >= 4 m/s, what do you propose should happen then? How can you be sure about that? If one is a crasher on purpose he usually gives a shit about penalties, even being kicked...he joins the next server to crash the next party. You take the freedom to list problems in the game so don't deny people the freedom to point out problems in your sollution. Sollution: Set up or join a protected dedi server with a good racing community and you don't end up having such problems.
That's the solution?? Perfect answer - german style of humor? ... that's not funny at all - I think you don't want to unterstand the impact of these issues - these crashes are disturbing a huge number of online event. And yes - in public events - where most of the online players are driving without monthly costs (in comparison to iRacing). One main feature, why several hundreds of customers are buying this piece of software! Read the entire thread and discuss possible solutions with the Sector3 team. Combine penalties with a scoring system like Olli has introduced! Whatever, do anything but please stop these stupid answers like "using dedi server" :/ Take a look to the "likes" -> 15 in less the 24h for this post. If you don't like the 15 km/h .. replace by a speed difference of 25 kmh ... maybe, you are happy with this value. If your car survives a 25 kmh impact into a wall or another car, your the hero of the day.
Actually, my car would be the hero. And it does make a difference whether it hits a wall or a car, doesn't it? That's why I said a 4 m/s impact into another car shouldn't neccessarily result in an end of the race. Counting "likes", really? Just because the NRA has 4.2 million likes on facebook doesn't mean they aren't generally and utterly wrong. Did you watch this years Le Mans? He drove into the pit after that and continued the race. How high do you think the impact speed, into a wall!, was there? I'm always for looking for easy sollutions, but sometimes they just appear to be sollutions. I'm not saying the damage model is perfect, it's far from it but sollutions á la "just raise this or lower that value" rarely solve problems that lie a little deeper. You are talking about disciplining users, for which there certainly are better sollutions than what we have right now, but from my pov yours are not the way to go, incident points might be and dedi servers certainly are part of the sollution.
There's one big problem with penalising drivers using speed difference, on numerous occasions I've been rammed into the car in front by Mr race won at first corner. No one likes spending 30 mins plus preparing for a race that ends on turn one. Still believe that if a replay of the run to the first turn was played at end of race,(including name tags and chat) would soon weedle out the persistent offenders. There is no better way of forcing someone to up their act if every time they enter a server everyone else leaves! Power to the people!
yellow flag... I can't remember this in R3E ...and the damaged car looks like it is able to drive perfect laps. In R3E, the crashers still continue driving with full speed. Anyway, you don't want to understand - it doesn't make sense to discuss with you. Enjoy beta testing ... all other stuff is obviously not your business. It's a waste of time ... sorry for all the R3E players with similar wishes like mine.
my last post deals with the content of Christian ... GooseCreature - you're right. My background of the initial post was to find short term solutions for a better online gaming experience, which are possible in one of the next patches. I don't want to fight for large construction sets inside the sector3 development plan.
So now we're jumping topics to distract from us not having valid points, are we? Common guy, you come here to criticise but can't stand criticism yourself? Yes, the car got repaired and finished 4th overall, just 3 laps behind the winner, lmao, you're quite the expert are you?
...these cars are driving 24h not 15min like most of the R3E racing events!!! So I'm not an expert but I am able see the differences and again - yellow flag -> no overtaking in real life... what about R3E? So please - compare these points with sufficient environmental conditions. If you are happy with the current R3E situation during online race events, you're fine. But there are a lot of people here with another opinion.
I still don't get what yellow flags have to do with your original point, that being the insufficient damage model and how minor crashes resulting in an end of the race would solve the problem of people crashing deliberately? All I was trying to point out with that video was that even heavy impacts do not neccessarily result in a car not being able to drive anymore, hence a sollution like the one you suggested would be far from realistic and that is what most people playing racing sims are looking for afterall. I never said I'm happy with the way some people behave on public servers (why I think dedi servers are part of the sollution) and how some races go due to that, but again, simply making them leave the game, by wrecking their car or kicking them from a server, doesn't solve the issue at hand, if somebody wants to be an arse and annoy other people this won't stop him from doing so. Incident points are not a bad idea but then again they also only take effect after the damage has been done and it's a cold comfort that a player ruining my or everybody's race is being punished after misbehaving. The longterm sollution would be to permanently ban players, which won't happen. So what is the most effective and immediate way of avoiding such players? Joining a protected dedi server that's being run by a reliant community. I also don't get why you brought up iracing, dedi servers are free of charge just like public ones.
I understand the dislike of iresponsible drivers, they are a pain in the rear end. but fact is racing is racing and everyone want to come first regardles of there ability to do so. I agree with one thing damage modle and the repeling effect when you hit something, have to change for it to be better. Then I am not expecting visual to change radical soon, cause I know that's alot of work but just physic changes would be a good start. = You can not hit the wall in higer speed then go on racing, maby link to pit and get it fixed but usualy it's end of race. I would like that to change soon in get real mode at least. I present a smal video from youtube showing just what racing is when it's not going the way we planed it. This guys are most of them as I saw professional drivers .. Stil shit hit the fan when someone overcome there ability to drive.
I'm sorry, but if we are talking about physical damage system, I have to find out after this weekend. RRE has seemingly none at all! All the more important .... please give us at least the damage model of Race07 .... please! So that has not really anything to do with simulation. Drive WTCC at Macau, and everyone knows what I'm talking ... wall riding as Arcarde without impact. I have take 20 x at time a Wall, and i have still 260 kmh on the straight...no Areo Damage. That should be the least, right?
A realistic damage model would surely bring more discipline. Overambitious "Borderline-Jockeys" would think twice to start risky actions, and if not for the sake of a fine mutual race experience than for the lesson that they ruin their own cars when doing it - with two results : Either they start to learn to behave for their own good or they will quit attending servers with strict rules. Unfortunately there are a lot of drivers around who think they are good because they have a good pace and a relentless approach - but if you look into the real world such drivers won't own their cockpit for long. Its all about to know your limits, to drive efficiently, to keep a good overview and to respect your opponents.And last not least not to blame others for your own stupidity/Impatience. If you can`t you should probably change/return to Pubfights, Wrestling or MMA... And @Mich Angel yes! Shit happens sometimes- thats racing.