No H-Shifter, delay penalty

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HomieFFM, Jun 4, 2020.

  1. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    I've said that as a joke in the Group 5 thread, but the more I think about it the more it could be actually a good idea xD...

    The thing is if you want to be really quick/competitive, in a Group 5 race for example, you are using the paddle shifter, because the time advantage is huge. It's like using a driving help, it's not ''Get Real'' anymore.

    Therefore should be some sort of delay if you are not using the real method, to simulate the real method (not directly one second, but a small realistic delay :D ), it could encourage to actually use the H-shifter/clutch and drive the car how it's supposed to be.

    Using the Paddle Shifter in an H-shifter car wouldn't be an advantage anymore, the playfield would be more even.

    (I'm not sponsored by any H-shifter company :D)
     
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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  2. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

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    Funnily enough, I actually agree with this. As you say, not a one second delay, that's far too long. But a realistic delay would be good. Pretty sure the DTM `92's used to have exactly this, but it disappeared after the physics update. I don't remember if the Gr5's used to have it too but I'm guessing they did.

    I know not everyone has an h-box and that's fine, but for those that do there's little reason to use one at all now due to this extra disadvantage.
     
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  3. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    I can explain why I disagree. :)

    By putting a penalty on using autoclutch we would systematically penalise users who don't own or can't afford a certain type of gear, in this case an h-shifter and/or a clutch pedal.

    In my opinion that would cause a difficult precedence for putting a handicap on users with what we arbitrarily decide to be inferior equipment. What would be the next step? "You don't own a DD wheel or a motion rig so we'll put penalty XY on you"? In my personal opinion that would be the wrong way to solve this problem, and me saying this has almost nothing to do with the fact that I'm using a gamepad. ;)

    But we are aware of this issue and investigating ways to balance it because I agree that atm the shifts when using autoclutch in h-pattern cars are too quick, almost sequential quick, and that ain't really right either.
     
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  4. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for explaining @Christian Göpfert ;)

    It's not really a penalty so I shouldn't have said that word, it's the other way around ''don't give an unrealistic advantage'' is the better way to describe it.

    A DD/Motion rig is inferior equipment I agree, but I would call a clutch and h-shifter as basic equipment just like the steeringwheel itself. You shouldn't be forced to use it, but you shouldn't get an advantage for not using it eather.

    To be fair, the advantage is not like ''I'm using autoclutch, I'm 10 seconds per lap faster'',
    but like you have said, it's almost a Sequential Autoclutch, but it should be a H-Shifter Autoclutch if that makes any sense :D
     
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  5. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    ..and just cause I thought this was an interesting fact: The difference between the former autoclutch delay and the way it is right now is only 0.1s. I find it quite amazing that such a small difference can feel so different.
    There was a technical necessity for this change, the intention was not to put manual clutch users at a disadvantage, so I'm sure the devs will find a way to mend this.
     
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  6. Arthur Spooner

    Arthur Spooner Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with @HomieFFM in this case. It's not about a penalty, but rather a balancing mechanic. Such mechanics are already in place for the artificial ABS and TC, the same should apply to an artificial automatic clutch and gearbox. Using an H-pattern with manual clutch is so much more difficult and prone to errors that it will just slow you down quite a bit compared to just slamming through the gears with the click of a button. I just want to compete on some kind of "even ground".

    Yes, I know it's difficult to balance as there are a wide variety of skill levels for using H-pattern with manual clutch - some struggle, some are really good at it. But the same applies to ABS and TC. I don't think a balance should bring artificial automatic clutch and gearbox down to n00b-levels of manual shifting, and also not to super-duper-pro levels, but to rather advanced levels.
     
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  7. wesker6664

    wesker6664 Member

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    I'm all for adding a delay to paddle shifting in older cars (not 1s though this would feel absolutely horrible!!), but before that please for us H shifters : lessen gearbox damage on downshifts and eliminate the "slipping clutch syndrome" :D (unless this has been corrected in a recent update ?)
     
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  8. Goffik

    Goffik Well-Known Member

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    That's not really the same thing, in my opinion. We're not talking about penalising people for having "inferior" equipment, or giving some kind of unfair "advantage" to those with an h-box. We're talking about adding a realistic delay from one gear to the next, to simulate the use of an h-box. That's levelling the playing field so that neither side has an inherent advantage.

    Technically speaking, h-box users are always at a disadvantage already given the extra skill and care needed when driving that way. But that's fine, comes with the territory. The better you get, the less the disadvantage becomes. But now with shifting being so quick with paddle and autoclutch on these older cars, that disadvantage is at a level h-box users can't overcome or do anything about because it's a game "feature". So here's hoping that S3 can come up with a proper solution.

    Also, don't get me wrong here. I barely ever use h-box outside of hot-lapping, because I'm useless at it in anything other than the DTMs and would present a hazard to all those around me. I just don't want those who do have the equipment to be put off from actually using it if they want to.
     
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  9. Fairman

    Fairman Well-Known Member

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    I'm too old, too lazy and too stubborn to re-learn driving with H-Pattern with Heel/Toe and whatnot at Racesims cause it requires much more finesse than driving your private car.Tried it, discarded it. I just wanna have fun I'm not a simnerd or elitist nor fanatical "you are all weaklings if you do not use your sim as I do "- guy...As said S3 should work on implementing a realistic delay /double-clutch (which I find ok ) feature for seq.-shifter folks ;)
     
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    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  10. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    Just in case you missed this vital part in my previous statement ;)
    I want just the same, a level playing field for everyone. But there's all sorts of suggestions floating around, from the (not completely serious, I'm aware of that) suggested 1s delay to adding a weight penalty f.e. I was purely speaking from a theoretical pov in that quote, we should not differentiate between different "levels" of equipment and apply different rules and/or penalties for them. I'm convinced that would create an even greater divide and deter more players than it would satisfy, eventually hurting the whole game by alienating a large part of the (potential) userbase.

    Even at the risk of sounding like a broken record: I partly agree that using autoclutch makes things easier compared to doing it all yourself. But we also have to accept the fact that this comfort comes at a cost. It might not seem like a big deal, but having to go through each gear sequentially, unsettling the car with each one of them is a disadvantage compared to being able to skip from 4th to 2nd f.e. That doesn't mean that autoclutch users should be compensated for that by reduced shifting times, I'm just saying it's not all sunshine lollypops on the automatic side (same applies for automatic transmission). ;)
    In my opinion they are not exactly the same and hence shouldn't be treated the same way, as explained in these quotes regarding automatic transmission:
     
  11. Maarten

    Maarten Member

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    Put in a penalty for not using cockpit view too while you're busy. Maybe some extra drag for using T-cam ;-)
     
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  12. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Well-Known Member

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    Just for fun, I did a small experiment.

    I downloaded a video from youtube (this here)
    and put it into an editing program, added a timestamp, slowed the video down and looked at how long it takes to go from the disengaged state to the engaged one (starting from the moment he slams in the gear, to the moment he is able to go to the throttle again)
    example.jpg
    the soundfile makes it pretty easy to get the exact points for measurements.
    here are a few examples how long it took him (in seconds) and he's shifting pretty fast:

    0,649 - 0,348 = 0,301
    0,551 - 0,284 = 0,267
    0,456 - 0,222 = 0,234
    0,287 - 0,053 = 0,234

    Using the Autoclutch (with the almost sequential speed) eliminates this completely because you can go full throttle all the way, that should add up pretty easily over a few laps and gives a unhealthy time advantage.

    I uploaded the slowmotion, so you guys can checkout yourself some stuff if you want :D
    (it's possible to make it even slower with the youtube options)
     
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    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020