Yes, they're very diligent about this. For a brief time I was a mod there and got a behind the scenes look, apparently other game developers like Turn10, Codies, etc. actively watch the download area and file complaints if any of their content has been ripped and converted/uploaded.
Most of our discussion here is basing on assumptions. We try to play a reasonable, feet-on-the-ground guessing game when estimating how many players R3E has - but nevertheless: guessing is what it necessarily is limited to. We do not know. I do not expect Raceroom Entertainment to reveal internal financial numbers to the public. Most business companies do not like to do that too easily, although certain official sites and offices dealing with tax entries and company profiles allow such insights into companies' internal and financial base data, due to legal demands. But I know that some companies whose games I play (for example Expansive Worlds, Kunos Simulazioni, eSim) have in the past, at a matching opportunity, given indications on how many players they have, some left it to that, others gave voluntarily even more details. Which more often seems to have a positive prestige effect, than the opposite effect. I therefore would welcome if the same would be made known for Raceroom. This would be an opportunity for the company to end all these discussions that express doubt - and in the end by that are not really helping business sales. But when we fish in the mist, speculations grow like giant mushrooms, no matter whether we try to ground them on reason or not. And some people not yet being customers already, might be worried to invest into something of which they are not certain that it will survive the next three years. Transparency raises sympathy and attractiveness. Its possible that for Raceroom Entertainment the formula "fewer customers that pay higher prices" does work sufficiently well. We could also assume quite the opposite. Its the guessing game. And we do not even know for sure that customer numbers are low. We conclude on that by seeing low activity in forums and race events and online races anmd the responses we meet when recommending the game to friends, colleagues, online buddies - but that is a hint, not an evidence for anything. If they want speculations like in this thread - originally launched by me - to end, they will need to become a bit more transparent on their active customer basis' numbers. If they don't, they will need to live with the speculations. Needless to say that intransparency usually raises the public's concerns and mistrust. I dont want to blackmail them with my subversive remarks. I'm just saying.
Conversely other clubs on other sites are doing fine it seems else we'd have no R3E club/league activity anywhere. I'm not saying its totally down to RD either but they have a history of overstretching the community they have with too many events, that I do have first hand experience of when the club I ran went from weekend races that members looked forward to with some special events thrown in to an almost every night race setup like the one seen for that R3E club with lots of different content used. When you're running a club for a sim that has premium content like R3E or like iRacing then you have to be careful how you approach and structure the events. There was a good little club for iRacing at RD, check the forum, there isn't even a sub forum for it anymore for a sim that is still very current and has thousands playing it yet somehow they can't tap into that? what does that tell you? and the same goes for other sims when their focus changes when some new mod is released for another sim and they juggle their resources to host races using that content to try and keep traffic to their site or in the case of the R3E club the guy running it would rather play rF2.
Like I said before, if R3E had solid Steam numbers, if my dozen or so sim racing friends around the world raced in R3E (all of them have tried it but currently none of them race with it), and if the servers always had lots of rooms with solid grid counts, then I wouldn't be at all concerned about one club on one forum closing. But the current situation is the opposite of all of those things, and while that doesn't mean the sky is falling, it does mean that maybe, maybe, there are larger issues contributing to these problems that are worthy of discussion. RD's policies and scheduling is part of the problem, but since we/S3S have no control over that it's not really worth discussing here.
Hey Brandon I've had my share of criticism toward raceroom as a whole myself. But like I mention this post seems to creep up again. Also it seems to be the same people over and over hammering once again the same message every chance they seem to get. And about @mr_belowski I would say everyone here who has an RD account should go on there and report the mod that stole his hard work. Please tell us what name it's under and I'll be right in there reporting it.
Its not claiming credit or anything, I'm not particularly mad about it, but it would be nice to have been asked. My main beef is the arbitrary and inconsistent manner in which rd moderates this stuff. I'm not allowed to ask for feedback on something I made, but some random geezer is allowed to post up some version of my work without asking me. Its not like I'm hard to find or unapproachable
You're comparing it to a game with an advertising budget that would probably fund Sector 3 for several years. You still ignore the fact there are other clubs/groups that don't seem to have such a problem and the fact we're discussing RD is because it was brought up as a shining example of why the sky is falling for R3E supposedly.
I'm fairly new to the criticizing party, so I'm just trying to get caught up! But really though, I have very few complaints about R3E, the FFB being the main one (which it seems is being dealt with), and the fact that it seems very few people are enjoying it. I have just about one year with R3E and over that time I've realized it's potential, but have also realized there are several factors that are either holding back its potential or keeping people from seeing its potential. I've seen several things that have reinforced and increased my concerns over that year, the closing of the RD club is just one thing that was added to that list. My participation in this conversation was never to imply that the closing of one club on one forum spelled doom for R3E, it was simply to try to get across that some of us have seen many worrying things beyond the poor performance of the RD club that could impede the future of R3E, and that the shuttering of the club has only reinforced those concerns. But that doesn't mean all the positive stuff has gone unnoticed! I think the world of S3S, I think they've made more positive strides than any of the other current sims in the last year, I think R3E has the potential to be the best of all of the current sims, I think they do a helluva lot with a very small staff and communicate with their fans better than most studios, I think the things coming down the pipeline are both impressive and exciting, I think R3E puts a bigger smile on my face than AC/Pcars/iRacing combined. But I also think decisions made by the previous administration/current publisher have hampered its prosperity and I hope they can figure out a way to overcome it and get thousands of people racing in R3E every month in dozens and dozens of clubs all around the Interwebs. And like I said earlier, the fact that it's always this one topic that draws the criticism means there isn't much else to complain about with R3E, so that's a good thing! Looks like I have a busy couple days at work ahead of me, so you probably won't have to hear anymore from me on the topic for a while. Yeah, that's not how it happened. This started with someone posting that they noticed the RD club had declining attendance which led to its closure and posted some ideas on why this happened and why R3E has such a low profile. This led to a civil discussion (you know, the very purpose of a discussion forum) of people also expressing their concerns about the low profile and offering ideas of how to fix it. You were the one who suggested we were claiming the sky was falling because one club closed. Nobody was actually making that claim. Don't bother quoting me anymore, this is the last of your comments I will respond to.
If that is the strategy - and I'm not entirely convinced it isn't - then I wish Raceroom luck with that. It will only work up to a point before some customers assess the situation and realise they have spent 2x, 3x or even 4x as much as a rival title such as Assetto Corsa. I'm already at that saturation point. As much as I love R3E and consider myself a big supporter, I cannot continue to keep spending what I have already on this product. Once my current stash of vRP is depleted, my future spend on R3E will be very conservative indeed. There is a desperate need for some kind of loyalty discount for the well-invested players, something to keep us coming back for new content rather than paying top-dollar for annual packs that offer updated skins and incremental performance upgrades. As for player numbers: I think it's a given that they are low. As we say again and again, the Steam figures do not lie. Some may point to competitions and the thousands of entries that they sometimes attract. That's fine, but these are free competitions, open to anyone. Only a small percentage of entrants may be well-invested in the product. The fact that Steam reports only a couple of hundred people online on a good day tends to back this up.
It's not your call to make who responds to you or participates in this discussion. I have responded to your points and made my own, most of which you have ignored because it doesn't fit your vision of R3E failing. The problem for you and Skybird was you asserted right from the start this was R3E's problem based on a single quote about R3E's price model made by you in the RD thread linked in the first post which was the cornerstone of the argument it was R3E's issue, you would not consider any other version of events such as the other quotes I posted from a people who complained about the premium account at RD and the comment made about the changes made to the club. You persistently compare this game to one that had a multi-million dollar budget and advertising campaign from a worldwide publisher. We are in a niche genre, rFactor 2's online numbers are really not any better so its ironic that the RD R3E club organiser is going to run events there - a game he openly stated to R3E club members he would rather play (there's a way to drum up enthusiasm) and yet online has no better following. rFactor 2 will have its day in the sun at RD before they decide to call it quits with that too and move onto the next game, then the next or whatever tickles their fancy at any given time.
James, what you say is the reason that makes the few actually the few in that motto quoted. I too have spend around 4x as much on R3E than I did spend on AC+DLC1/2. Partly because at the beginning I was not fully aware of the opportunities in the pricing model. However, I can afford it, the quality convinces me, and I do not really care (at least not as much anymore than I would have when I was a teenager or student). So the question is how many people there are like you, and how many like me. Its the same with another expensive game I play, The Hunter. Business mode is subscription of playing time, plus buying items for life. I spend quite more than I needed to get access to all palying possibilities, but I knew what I was doing and why, and it was about immersion for me me. For me it is okay that way. Others spend even more. Others less. People are different. If it works, it works for them. If not, then not. They know the numbers and cash flow. There is another parallel between Raceroom and The Hunter. The game The Hunter was, like Raceroom, released way too early, and the project almost died one or two years later. Then the current company bought it and continued to develop it, changing some things. This compares somewhat to SimBin, and its fall and Sector3 forming up from them. Like The Hunter, Raceroom had a premature start that was not too much appreciated by people. Still, situation remained critical until a new CEO implemented very aggressive changes that made it appear more "commercial", more money-milking in the eyes of many. He made himself quite some enemies, and earned quite some angry comments and criticism. However, the success following, proved him right - the game now is so healthy that it is no longer cross-financed by the mother company that does other stuff as well, but now finances the other projects of that company, its the major income source. And they continue to release hunting reserves on a regular basis... What was a very dangerous and almost failing start in 2008 or 2009 , now is a success story of great dimension. However, it took several years to throw the rudder around, and one small and one big revolution - and an uncompromised reorientation on making more money. Not everybody liked that. But still - the end result proved this strategy to be correct. On the other hand, there is X Rbirth, and the publisher/developer Egosoft. They too released too early - WAY too early, 12-18 months too early. The patching list was endless. And the whole sky came down on them, two years ago the scenes of criticising and attacking them, bordered the hilarious, and the anger still is there. They tried to endure it by keeping to the price mark, patching and patching and patching more, meanwhile even having released a payware DLC, but the game has grown old over this, the anger is still there, and only the die hard fans appreciate what Egosoft tried to save in what still was to be saved, and stayed loyal to the game, or came back to it. But the new big "customer harvest" that Egosoft hoped for, did not happen. AFAIK, they are now under economic stress, to put it this way. With Elite and Star Citizen having appeared on market meanwhile, featuring much more modern technology, a second rise of X Rebirth (after the initial sale on release) seems to be a thing of fantasy only. They did not dare new ways and cashing coins for that - and have lost. Too much ventured - nothing gained. Nothing ventured - nothing gained. Chose your poison.
Sorry, I do not feel correctly addressed and summarised by most that you said at all. The points I was about, have been repeatedly described, and you still have not gotten them correctly, sorry to say so. I do not like, in this or other places, to be misquoted, quoted out of context, or - like here - being linked to misled summaries of content I should have said or should have implied, so please leave me out of it. Even more so after post #162. --- Whats more, I once again would recommend to let this thread now drop down the list. Its pretty much moving in circles - since pages - now.
It's not an affordability issue for me nor a lack of conviction in the quality, more an issue of principle. R3E doesn't exist in its own bubble. The likes of rF2, AC and GSC have their own strengths and weaknesses but as packages can go toe-to-toe with R3E, often exceed it, and do so for a much smaller outlay. That's all I'm saying. Raceroom should be aware of the market.
Well let's just hope that the influential people involved in last night's stream (RD included) liked what they saw and start spreading the news then everyone's happy! Oh and by the way I have offered a whole raft of suggestion and improvement ideas through various threads on this forum I just prefer not to repeat myself!
To be misquoted or quoted out of context I'd have had to have quoted you and in the reply you refer to I did not quote you. If I had quoted you from another forum and snipped out particular words then yes it could be levelled at me that I misquoted you but I have not, in fact your snipped quote of my post could equally be seen to be misleading because you cut out the reasons I made for thinking that way. The plain fact is that the RD club closing was central to your point about R3E's troubles, in fact you even say: With a link to the announcement at RD that their R3E club was closing and to further bolster your point of view you include a quote from Brandon Wright that he posted on RD where he criticises among other things the business model R3E has. You accuse me of misquoting you yet you cherry picked that single item he mentioned about the business model yet ignore another members post where he says the premium account and changes made to the club are reasons he does not participate. My disagreement with your initial post was that you assumed and asserted that this was clear indication of a problem with R3E's business model rather than look at potential issues with RD's club setup. That is not misquoting or misrepresenting you, its all there in the first post of this thread for anyone to read.
Revvin. You simply refuse to recognise the wider context the RD thing is embedded in, and/or may be indicative for. Not even when I said that I do not care for RD itself at all. That's what the rift is about. I further said I leave it to that.
I do not care about race department,to me it makes no sense asking money to enter a forum. What i do care about is raceroom expansion.There are still many issues with the game but im very confident that most will be solved due to the good interaction between devs and players,i see up till now that most requests and complaints are taken into consideration. The problem that remains imo is,as already many said,the high prices,also the different kinda confusing pricing models.What i believe sould be done is to compose a starter pack and a fat pack to lure new players.Also theres people that already gave much money,so the latest tracks introduced should be attached to existing packs and sould come with a brave discount for pack owners,also there sould be an all round lowering of prices.
So the R3E club is closing through lack of numbers, the R3E club organiser for R3E openly admits he'd rather be playing rF2 yet the numbers are really no better for RD's rF2 clubs as you can see below: Oct 16th - 12 Oct 15th - 1 Oct 12th - 6 Oct 9th - 8 Oct 8th -1 Oct 5th - 6 Oct 2nd - 8 Oct 1st -13 Sept 30th - 0 Sept 29th - 0 Sept 25th - 14 Sept 23rd - 0 Sept 22nd - 0 Sept 18th - 11 Sept 16th - 4 Sept 11th - 8 Sept 9th - 1 Sept 2nd - 0 It seems that the most popular race for rF2 would be the GT3 races and yet you'd think that for GT racing nothing really beats R3E content wise. I know from being a member there for a long time a lot of clubs at RD have had to put in placeholder cars where a sim doesn't have a car or maybe even a track yet with R3E you can run a realistic GT series. We're told that Assetto Corsa is much more active on Steam and on their official forums yet since the start of the month RD's participation numbers have also appeared to drop for Assetto Corsa. We're told that Project Cars is very popular on Steam, that their forums are equally busy with traffic yet once again RD's Project Cars club struggled with low particiaption. iRacing shares a closer comparison with R3E in terms of its business model and has lots of activity online, lots of leagues all over the world yet RD closed theirs. Games which we're told are more popular on Steam and their respective forums - and I'm not going to argue with the Steam stats and yet the clubs at RD for those games are not filling grids like you'd expect yet the R3E club suffers low numbers and its shut down prompting this thread where you'd be led to believe the sky is falling.
While I agree that RDs number of signups and downscaling of the R3E club (it has not closed afaik, just fewer races per week atm) is not a metric for any titles success in and of it's own, I don't understand how you (@Revvin ) seem to completely disregard the cold hard facts that not a lot of people are playing R3E when compared to other titles such as AC. To me the number of concurrent players on steamcharts tells the bitter truth, this brilliant sim that I love is not getting the love it deserves from the masses, and that is disconcerting! While you see this thread as a "the sky is falling" thread, I see it as a thread of similar minded people who share my love for the sim but also my concern about it's future and how to get more people interested in it. Like it or not, the business model have been and will continue to be one of the areas a lot of people will point to as a possible cause, because a lot of people have issues with it. As been stated several times in this thread before, many of us have friends that don't wanna touch this sim just because of the pricing model, and I can't blame them as there are other really good (albeit not AS good imo) but importantly cheaper alternatives out there. At the end of the day I think it's important for all to remember that save for perhaps a very select few rotten apples, all of us here are on these forums posting because we really enjoy this sim and we all want it to succeed.