Sector3! Make a normal AI!!!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTDnipro, Mar 10, 2017.

  1. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0
    Ridge Racer?
    I had one of those on the Playstation, and we discovered that you could link two consoles and play with one disc, if you put a music CD in the other machine. 'Mr. Blobby' never got so much use.
    Ah, sweet Nostalgia!

    Bless Noel Edmunds and his Crinkly Bottom!

    Perhaps RR2 is the upgraded Rampant Rabbit, whatever that is.......
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. J-F Chardon

    J-F Chardon Sector3 Producer Developer

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Ratings:
    +4,268 / 0
    So do we have a good AI? :)
    What's the conclusion after 9 pages? Maybe OP should have run a poll.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0
    Yes. (we have good AI)
    But also bad AI.

    I think we all agree that polls were not spectacularly successful last year.
    Please don't listen to all the people wanting you to change the game name to Racey-McRaceFace Experience.;)
     
  4. J-F Chardon

    J-F Chardon Sector3 Producer Developer

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Ratings:
    +4,268 / 0
    What's the summary, where is it good, where is it bad?
     
  5. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0
    Here.
    Assetto Corsa.
    In that order.

    Cue another 9 pages of debate. I have read all the posts, I have no idea of the answer.

    But I'll start the ball rolling...

    The starts are a bit of a lottery.
    The AI need to crash/spin occassionally in really big style.
    DTM92 cars need to be less bouncy in side impacts. (Not AI, but it feels like it.)
    I think at below 100 Skill, the drivers should get more nervous when being followed closely. I know I do.

    Overall, I like the AI. I think it is currently the best available, and the reason I play R3E more than anything else.
     
  6. Paul Bennett

    Paul Bennett New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0
    I've found some improvements when running 2/3 lap races first with Adaptive , the AI seem to calm down a bit. Maybe we could get a guide from the Devs on how adaptive should be working. RRE does have a more racy AI compared to other sims nothing wrong with that, just add an aggression setting for our skill levels.
     
  7. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2015
    Ratings:
    +711 / 0
    I dare a summary.

    We have an AI that is amongst the best out on the market and that is good enough that it justifies the conclusion: in case of doubt, leave it as it is. Try to improve it only when you are certain it indeed is an improvement. The aggressiveness should not be toned down any further. Personally I would not mind to get back some from the second-last version again. It was plenty of fun.

    The main problem I found after my own criticism some weeks ago (when the bite of the second-last version was tamed down again in the last version) is that the AI performs inconsistently on tracks and between car classes. Some car classes and tracks work better than others. Here, more work is welcomed. Also, in general, AI cars braking too surprisingly and needlessly in or before turns, sometimes is a problem. The AI being able to take turns more aggressively - that would be welcomed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0
    Err, what?
    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.....
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0
    Summary: 2nd only to RF2 with regards to overall racing against the AI, it's very good but certainly needs work in specific areas. Like everything really it's a constant process to make better and should never be left "alone".

    Improvements needed:
    - Improved player awareness.
    - Track reentry awareness.
    - "warping pass" bug.
    - Better retirement from AI (big crashes mean nothing, same goes for player car).
    - Better defensive qualities.
    - Lose the "AI on rails" when running wide on corners.
    - Fix Bathurst AI lines asap! (Mentioned in bug thread).
    - Better re-passing improvement, once you pass they tend to drop away to quickly.
    - Add more sliders in game for better useability, I.e. AI Spread, AI Aggression, AI Mistakes etc

    Enjoying it but plenty of room for improvement, no rush either I know how hard it is to get the best AI :)
     
  10. mr_belowski

    mr_belowski Well-Known Member Beta tester

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Ratings:
    +1,283 / 0
    I think they're ace, but there's definitely room for improvement. To answer some of MarcG's points


    - Improved player awareness.
    in many cases I *like* the fact that the AI doesn't give me much (or any) room - it makes you hesitate to pass, which is how it should be IMO

    - Track reentry awareness.
    perhaps - I've not noticed an issue here but they don't go off often

    - "warping pass" bug.
    not seen this

    - Better retirement from AI (big crashes mean nothing, same goes for player car).
    yip

    - Better defensive qualities.
    I agree with this. They *do* defend, which is great, but they don't do it very well. They need to cover the inside line on the approach to some corners - e.g. approaching Les Combes at Spa, if you're closing on them I would like to see them in the middle of the track way before the braking zone so I have to choose to either stick it right up the inside or go the long way round

    - Lose the "AI on rails" when running wide on corners.
    Suzuka's 130R is particularly bad for this

    - Fix Bathurst AI lines asap! (Mentioned in bug thread).
    yip

    - Better re-passing improvement, once you pass they tend to drop away to quickly.
    yip - it's like the give up or something, it's a bit weird

    - Add more sliders in game for better useability, I.e. AI Spread, AI Aggression, AI Mistakes etc
    Hmm... I'd prefer no sliders except overall pace
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Ratings:
    +391 / 0
    R3E AI are good for my settings, which is why I haven't even tried adaptive.
    They may not be perfect (I don't think that is even possible) but as I (and others) have said before, human (real) drivers aren't either, let alone what you see in online sim races.
    I have R3E - RF2 -AMS - pCars and AC installed and after several hundreds of hours in all of them, I would rate AI in RF2 as the best, if it were not for the fact that they randomly take you out on places that nobody would expect, on a straight for instance, suddenly moving from their line and banging in to you (it always ends up bad).
    - R3E and AMS a close second,
    - followed by pCars and last
    - AC's dumb AI. They don't seem to have a clue and they are way too slow.
     
  12. Martin93

    Martin93 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Ratings:
    +66 / 0
    I agree with many things, apart from AMS AI... They are good in sprint races but bad on longer races. Since they ignore blueflag and faster AI cars dont even try often to overtake slow lapped cars. And AI dont suffer from tire wear.. So for me R3E AI is by far the best(of games I play, don't play rF2 so I don't jugde that game AI ofc)

    Or there is 1 game I have that AI is maybe better, not a sim but still... And that is F1 2016...
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  13. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Ratings:
    +391 / 0
    Could very well be. In AMS, I mainly race 10 lap races, no pitstops.
     
  14. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0
  15. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Ratings:
    +320 / 0
    This is going to be more than two cents, so bear with me. :)

    Overall, the AI is very good. Up until now I used to use the AMS/GSC AI as my measuring stick, but the R3E AI is certainly giving it a serious run for its money.
    (And yes, I know the rF2 AI is usually lauded as the best, but I have a different set of problems with rF2 so I don't play it very much)
    The AMS AI is more 'aware', but that comes at a cost, it's also very 'nice' and doesn't race you very hard.
    And as @Martin93 stated, they're absolute rubbish for endurance races due to internal factors.

    And I agree with a lot of things that @MarcG stated, in particular about the lines available on some tracks (Oscherscleben is another prime example).
    But I wouldn't want an introduction of sliders, mainly because I see it as opening Pandoras box.
    We'll be inundated with threads of "The AI sucks!", only to find out ten pages later that people have set it up for 150% and "Homicidal Maniac Aggression". :D
    Nor do I particular think that the AI drops back after being passed is a bug. Yes they drop back, but that's (I think) due to them getting cut off, and slowing down so as not to hit the player. If they have the pace, they're usually back right behind you in half a lap or so.
    Granted, it looks a little weird but it's not a major issue IMO.

    There are however huge differences in AI quality depending on which class you drive.
    Right now the worst of the lot is probably the GTOs, and I think that's due to the AI having trouble handling the weight-shifting.
    Although why that wouldn't affect the Gr. 5s, I have no idea.

    Second problem is that the AI is absurdly dependant on having the 'right' AI level set. If you're more than say 2-3 levels off, you're racing experience goes from fantastic to disastrous in a heartbeat.
    Which is why I keep pushing the Adaptive AI like a demented snake-oil peddler. You get much better racing when the AI is just a smidge faster than you are.
    But........there's a wee snag.
    Running Adaptive is all very well, until the AI gets updated. :)
    Due to the way that AAI works (i.e. by using aggregate averages) any major change to the AI will mean you have to start over.
    There have been several posts with people complaining over hyper-aggressive AI, until they deleted their index file.
    The January patch introduced AI changes that made them 5-6 levels faster, dependant on the combo, which meant that ones index file was completely useless.
    So AAI in combination with a beta game makes for as "rock/hard place" situation. You can either update the AI, leaving the AAI back on square one, or you can encourage the use of AAI but then you can't improve the AI significantly.
    One way to avoid this (and I don't know if it's even possible) is to supply an AI index with each update.
    Doesn't have to be much, simply a list of times the grid will do for each car-track combo.
    Assuming of course that the game can be run without graphics, otherwise it would take forever to do.
    If that isn't a possibility, give us a list of, oh say 3-4 tracks and the 5 most popular classes. That'll give people a starting point as to how much to shift the AI levels already in place.

    One thing I would like to see is a hard-coded aggression-slider. Making something like the WTCC (where door-banging is practically mandatory) very aggressive, GT3s a bit more moderated, and open-wheelers very careful.
    Right now, FR2s are rubbing wheels like there's no tomorrow which looks a little odd.
    Although if the open-wheelers gets more careful, they also have to get better at defending their line, otherwise it's a moot point.

    Finally, the biggest problem with the AI isn't actually with the AI, but with the collision physics.
    They are, quite frankly, bad.
    Leaving out the magnetic contacts, and other stuff that is probably just ordinary bugs, you have to fix the issue with every impact being transferred instantly.
    Again, this isn't an issue with every class, but most of them. Modern DTMs, Prototypes, Aquilas and GTOs are notorious in this area. And when people get spun off, they're likely to blame the AI, not the physics.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. nickyjj2011

    nickyjj2011 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2016
    Ratings:
    +14 / 0
  17. maxx2504

    maxx2504 Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0
    Hi !

    To Sector3:
    -Turn off "slow when pushed"
    -Make an aggressiv button

    By the way the collision is totally fine. I can drive with the AI 50cm behind them at 250kmh or much closer beside them. Maybe its really a class problem ? I mostly drive GT3. But the AI is kicking in every class. Im not that slow...the problem is the car in front...they always begin to drive very slow and make mistakes (as i said, "slow when pushed") and that forces me to brake and the AI behind me is trying to kick me when i brake. Which real diver would make so much mistakes when you behind him ? It should be the opposite...the AI in front should try to drive faster when i push them...and THEN maybe they do mistakes. I personally get faster when someone try to push me....so why the AI can't do that ? That would be more realistic...

    Its very hard in this forum to make my standpoint clear.... :/


    PS: I dont like people who just post stupid pics here. You should discuss the problem...were are not in kindergarden ;)
     
  18. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0
    Just to clarify AI dropping off when passed:
    I can take a few laps trying to catch them, as soon as I do they drop away very quickly, nothing to do with the pass itself it's their lack of keeping up and fighting back. Once I pass an AI I'm rarely threatened again unless I've made a mistake and let them get close.

    As for not having more sliders for useability I'll say this again - The AI in RRE are far too restricted, as we've seen in this thread everyone is different and having an AI the same for everybody is frustrating. The ability to tweak them to the individuals liking should become an option otherwise they become stale (as I've found), you don't have to touch the sliders you can leave them at default, but the Option that is needed to prolong the experience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  19. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0
    Sometimes a picture says exactly what you mean. Or can't say.
    Sometimes it transcends a language barrier.
    Sometimes you wonder if the person it is aimed at can actually read.

    And sometimes they are just supposed to be funny.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. jimortality

    jimortality Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0
    @CheerfullyInsane is the adaptive master! Follow his instructions and it will enhance your experience. If you train the AI correctly, it works fine with the new tool.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1