Shocked by A.I times in GTR1/Nurb combo (120%). Some questions

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by spyshagg, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. spyshagg

    spyshagg Active Member

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    Knowing the 3motion challenge leaderboard produced a best time in the mid 1:50s, I was surprised to see the AI's 120% time blistering into the 1:47's. I proceeded to switch my view into one of the AI's to see how they were doing it and I was even more confused by their driving style.

    Are their times representative at all? Are they doing it with the stock setup and with the same BoP we have?
     
  2. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Yup and yup. As for how they do it i have no idea tho :D
     
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  3. spyshagg

    spyshagg Active Member

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    Now that is truly demoralizing to hear :D

    I wonder how many updates per second their inputs have, because they drive like they have perfect traction/stability/ABS control. The way they do the hairpin is simply bananas.
     
  4. Rujasu

    Rujasu New Member

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    I think in any racing sim a value above 100% means the AI starts cheating and flat out gets a grip multiplier on their tires or something. There's just no way a bot drives that well.
     
  5. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Why shouldnt a bot be able to do what many human drivers can easily do tho?
     
  6. Rujasu

    Rujasu New Member

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    Ask the people in robotics who try to make their robots walk. A lot goes into a good lap that a human calculates subconsciously, and turning all that into an algorithm that runs well on consumer PCs is a very difficult task.
     
  7. spyshagg

    spyshagg Active Member

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    Pretty sure they must be being fed instant telemetry and adjusting their inputs as fast as an ABS or TC system does. And their laws of physics are a known quantity because its a man-made game engine, so they must know at any time when +1% of throttle = lose grip.

    I dont know.
    I'm just baffled at their times and my inability to improve when using their techniques.
     
  8. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    I mean obviously i dont know anything about all of this but if we take one ai car on a track so that nothing interferes with it then i dont see why it shouldnt be able to put in a perfect lap where it gets all the throttle, brake, steering inputs absolutely spot on if you allow it to at least. But @you or the robotics people or sector 3s ai guys feel free to enlighten me :D
     
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  9. Andy Kettler

    Andy Kettler Well-Known Member Beta tester

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  10. Rujasu

    Rujasu New Member

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    Sure, they basically have inherent ABS and TC, but how do they determine what is the correct throttle, brake and steering input at every calculation cycle?
     
  11. spyshagg

    spyshagg Active Member

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  12. Andy Kettler

    Andy Kettler Well-Known Member Beta tester

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  13. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Once again dont know if actually possible but in my imagination a smart human who knows the games physics could tell the ai all the values for a perfect lap. Theyd then have to throw in some random variance in how good the ais inputs match the perfect values on a given lap so its not the same thing every lap. To those with more knowledge youre still invited to enlighten me ;D
     
  14. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Post removed because I just made it up and it turned out to be total balls.....
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  15. Rujasu

    Rujasu New Member

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    Generally how a basic racing AI works, is that they do actually have the same control inputs as the player, but they blindly follow a set of waypoints, with some maths determining which way to turn and how much throttle/brake to apply. Usually the waypoints are generated by a real human driving around the track (https://www.studio-397.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/rF2_AIW_Creation_Tutorial.pdf is the rf2 AIW doc, for reference) with some manual tweaks later.
    Of course it gets more complicated than that when other cars are around, but all the algorithms are very general instructions, and the bots will never have a real understanding of what they're trying to achieve with their inputs.
    The physics and decision making involved in a racing sim are much more complicated than even professional racing drivers consciously understand, just like with walking or riding a bike. There's a lot there that we understand intuitively, but a computer only does exactly what it's told, without any understanding of context.
     
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  16. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    Please just don't look at the AI to learn better driving :p AI won't be better at racing cars for a long time, especially with the limited processing power in a game. @Rujasu basically summed up why, This is one of the reasons why AI have to run on different physics from players, they wouldn't even be close to competitive on the same physics (most likely just crash). Another big reason is processing power though, your CPU would go up in flames trying to run a couple of cars on player physics, let alone a whole field of AI :D
     
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  17. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin Moderator Beta tester

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    what he said above , but with chocolate sprinkles

    Andi
     
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  18. Rujasu

    Rujasu New Member

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    Pretty sure AC and ACC run full physics on all cars all the time. Why it matters that an AI driver going through Bruxelles is fully simulated when you're at La Source, you'll have to ask Kunos, but that's what they insist on doing. I start getting CPU usage warnings at around 24 cars in AC, while the first bottleneck I run into in R3E is memory-related hitches at 99 cars, so there's definitely a cost to doing it.
     
  19. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin Moderator Beta tester

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    running the same physics and doing the same calculations isnt the same thing in my opinion

    and as far as i understood they use sc , or they fall of the track
    Andi
     
  20. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    Seeing as this is my thing, I'll chime in.

    Our AI uses the exact same file system with the very same parameters as the player car. The differences come with how those parameters are interpreted. Unlike a human reacting to the environment they see, AI follow waypoints and use a variable sample rate. The (most recent) process for creating a new AI-driven car starts with the player's physics files. The setup is then tweaked to match the AI's preference, which is slight oversteer at all speeds.

    The process hasn't always been like that, there has been a conscious effort within the last 18 months to bring AI behaviour closer to the players car.
     
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