Suggested Settings for Endurance Races against the AI

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by dungbeetle, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    It sounds like the AI are not linking fuel and tyres into their strategy. They will pit for fuel but if tyres are not critical they will not change them....only to have to make another stop for tyres later. If this is the case there is probably no way to force the AI into what a human would call a logical stop. Perhaps the AI needs reprogramming to make it so AI always take tyres if they are fueling.
     
  2. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex,
    I carried out a few trials:

    GT3 (Porsche 911 GT3 R used)
    Hungaroring
    Car Setup page predicted full tank laps on 1x fuel use = 40 laps (and this figure is what the AI uses to pit within a 3 lap window).
    Actual player full tank laps on 1x = 53 laps.

    BMW M235i
    Hungaroring
    Car Setup page predicted full tank laps on 1x fuel use = 28 laps (and this figure is what the AI uses to pit within a 3 lap window).
    Actual player full tank laps on 1x = 41 laps.

    DTM 1992 (Mercedes used)
    Hungaroring
    Car Setup page predicted full tank laps on 1x fuel use = 26 laps (and this figure is what the AI uses within a 3 lap window).
    Actual player full tank laps on 1x = 34 laps.

    Notes
    I got the AI pitting information by observing what they did during a 4x fuel race and then extrapolating the 1x data from that.
    I got the actual player information by noting the in-car litres per lap readouts, which I then verified by adding a small amount of fuel and then running laps until the car ran out of fuel.

    This could be why the AI often throws in extra pit stops during a long distance race compared to the player.

    Hope this helps.
     
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  3. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    wow that's a huge differential
    but I wonder if the 4x fuel usage has made you test inaccurate
     
  4. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I suppose that's possible, although the player litres per lap were actually taken from the on board car litres per lap readout at 1x after a number of laps were run. I then used this and the maximum tank capacity to calculate the number of total laps available on a full tank. I then put in a small amount of fuel and ran laps until the car ran out of fuel and the car did in fact run out of fuel after the number of predicted laps, so I wouldn't expect to see much of an error there.

    The AI pitting figures were taken at 4x though, so some kind of error may be possible there, however the fuel usage multipliers do seem to be simple multiples, as evident from the Car Setup page when each of the four multiples are applied. You're right though, it probably wouldn't hurt to run those at 1x just to be sure. :)

    Hopefully the Devs might take a look 'under the hood' so to speak at the AI programming involved, to see if there actually is a problem here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  5. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I think you would have to do the tests on 1x to get reliable data as he mentioned that the margin for error is also doubles or 4x when using fuel multipliers. You would also need to note exactly what AI are doing on each of the pit stops, is is it fuel and tyres, just fuel, just tyres to get a full picture of what is going on..... What do you call a long race by the way? 3 hours or so?
     
  6. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Due to my own personal time constraints, I would consider anything over an hour to be a long race.

    That's why I'm such a fan of the fuel and tyre multiples and wish that they worked a little better. They can be used to force multiple pit stops in a much shorter time frame. The multiple pit stops then serve to mix up the running order and provide undercutting opportunities.
     
  7. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    It would be handy to know which series provides the shortest running time on a full tank (ideally a gas-guzzling monster with a small tank) for a 1x test to keep testing time to a minimum.

    Easy to take the tyre changes out of the equasion by simply disabling tyre wear - one less variable.

    I would hope that the fact that the AI don't behave well on 4x is enough to warrant further investigation by the Devs, even if everything is fine on 1x.
     
  8. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I'd guess the FRJ has a small tank as they were only ever designed for short races.
     
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  9. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    @Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex,
    Here is a test carried out using 1x fuel consumption to see if the tests using 4x fuel consumption in post #23 above had errors due to the multiples used. Tyre wear was disabled to eliminate that as a variable.

    Track - Hungaroring GP
    Track length - 4,381m
    Car - FRJ
    Race Laps - 25
    Race Time - n/a
    No. of Opponents - 14
    AI Difficulty - Adaptive
    Practice (mins) - n/a
    Quali (mins) - n/a
    Player starting position 14th
    AI control in pit lane - ON
    Minimum Pit Stop Duration - 90 seconds
    Tyre Wear - OFF
    Fuel Use - 1x
    Mandatory Pit Stop - OFF
    Pit Stop/Fuel Add - Normal
    Fuel at start - Full Tank (40 litres)
    AI Car setup/Full tank predicted capacity in laps) - 17 laps
    Player predicted laps from on board read out calculation - 1.6 litres per lap x 25 laps = 40 litres.

    RESULTS
    - Player pit stops: None
    - AI pit stops: 1 stop by all of the AI during laps 14, 15 or 16
    - The player started 14th out of 15 on the grid, did not pit and won the race 1min and 8 seconds ahead of 2nd place. This was due to not having to make a stop, as the player made sure to keep pace with the rest of the field in 10th position until the AI cars started to pit.
    - Player had 2 litres of fuel left in the tank at the end of the race.
    - The AI pitted in accordance with the Car Setup page full tank prediction of 17 laps, compared to the player's full tank capacity of 25 laps.
    - This result is similar to those races run at 4x fuel consumption, as detailed in post # 23 above.
     
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  10. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Excellent work! So on the basis of this we can't run fuel in long races as it will always cock up. It would be very interesting to run with fuel off and tyre wear on and see if they behave properly in that situation.
     
  11. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.

    It seems that the AI cars might either be using different fuel consumption figures to the player, or maybe they don't start the race with a full tank of fuel for some reason.

    Don't think there's anything else we can do now, as only the Devs are privy to the mysterious inner workings of the AI's mind! ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  12. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Here's a work around that I've been using:

    1. Select your car and track combination.
    2. Select the required Fuel Use Multiplier.
    3. Select no AI opponents and start a practice session.
    4. Go to Car Setup. Fill the fuel tank completely and note the number of laps (this is how far the AI will get on a full tank).
    5. Go to practice and run several laps to get the 'litres per lap' consumption from the car's data display (use the Full Data Display, it's easier to read).
    6. Multiply the litres per lap (See 5. above) by the number of laps noted in the Car Setup screen (See 4. above) and put this amount of fuel in the car for the start of the race to keep you on an equal footing with the AI cars in your Class. You and the AI cars should now run out of fuel at roughly the same time.
    7. Also add this amount of fuel to your pit stop strategy so you will stay in step with the AI when you stop to refuel during the race.
    8. Make a note somewhere of the calculated fuel quantity and the fuel use multiplier used so you won't have to go through all this again later for this particular car, track and fuel multiplier combination.

    I find this particularly useful now that we can do Multiclass Endurance Races offline! (Thank you, Sector 3. :))
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  13. 2Lame2Aime

    2Lame2Aime Well-Known Member

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    I did a "VLN" Race this afternoon with 50 cars. Sadly the other AIs pitted after an hour and then one or two laps later again. Once for fuel and twice for tyres I or the other way around I guess.
     
  14. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    From the investigation dungbeetle has done you either have to use his fuel calculations or turn fuel use off. You also can't use fuel and tyres as at the moment the AI pitstops are not co-ordinated enough to allow for both. There is work to be done in this area..... Not sure if he's done any testing with just tyre wear turned on? It might give more realistic results.
     
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  15. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Did a 50 lap multiclass race (approximately 2 hours) around Spa last night with 17 P2s and 18 GT4s using the fuel calcs. I was in a P2 car. Fuel and tyres were set to 1x.

    The calcs said that the AI P2s would go for 20 laps on a full tank and that I needed 52 litres in the tank for the equivalent distance.

    During the race both me and the AI pitted at around lap 20 as predicted, although interestingly the AI's next pit stops were spread out between laps 35 and 40 to get to the end, making for a good mix in positions.

    Most importantly though, me and the AI made the same number of stops during the race so there were no silly gaps in the finishing times or extra last minute stops by the AI.

    The GT4s did their own thing and provided some nice moving obstacles during the race.

    Tempted to invest time in some serious multiclass endurance races now, without the prospect of spurious AI pit stops ruining the race right at the end.
     
  16. Neil Bateman

    Neil Bateman Well-Known Member

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    So does this mean that when in car set up, the litres and laps shown bear no resemblance to the player car other than it shows the cars fuel tank capacity, the laps shown per quantity of fuel is only what the AI will do. No wonder i am so slow.;)
     
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  17. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, that's another aspect. You are probably carrying too much fuel against the AI for short sprint races. :)

    As you say, the litres are correct, but the number of laps shown are not. The number of laps show how far the AI will get on that amount of fuel, however the player will get much further on the same amount.

    This is why on longer races where pitting is involved, the AI will often have to pit more frequently than the player (depending on the race distance of course) which ruins the race.

    The fuel calculation is used to calculate how much fuel the player's car actually needs to cover the same distance as the AI.
     
  18. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I think you may have just got lucky in that race. I've found no evidence that tyres and fuel are being worked into a pit strategy by the AI. It would seem that by luck the tyre stop has landed at the same time as the fuel stop for the AI. I find that they will not change tyres unless it's in their preset window to do so regardless of whether they are already in for fuel.

    Fueling is totally screwed up in the game, there's no reason we should have to short fuel to match the AI. I have had very good races just using tyres, and a multiplier that ensures 2 or 3 changes in a longer race. Just tyres also works well for strategy as although you can go longer on tyres than the AI the laptime drops off quite rapidly.

    My opinion is that for endurance racing, at the moment, turn fuel off. It's just broken.
     
  19. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but hopefully identifying where the problems lie might assist the Devs in solving the problem.
     
  20. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    Just tried a 20 lap race around Spa with 4x tyre wear and fuel off. The problem was the AI pitted for a tyre change half way through the race while I just looked after the tyres. Strolled around for the second half of the race by myself for the win as I didn't need to stop. You could argue that was good tyre strategy on my part, but it wasn't really - it was way too easy. My lap times were no where near slow enough for the AI to catch up.

    Seems to be a similar problem to the fuel, but there's no way that I can see to level the playing field for tyres apart from making sure you pit whenever the AI does.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018