The Assetto Corsa thread

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Skybird, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. James Cook

    James Cook Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    Never understood the appeal of AC. It's just a bit flat, clinical and dull.
     
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  2. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Well-Known Member

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    Me, beeing flat no more, clinical (ask my wife) and dull (for sure) enjoying it, though.;)
     
  3. Christian G

    Christian G Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    So you finally did get that boob job? :p
     
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  4. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Well-Known Member

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    Answered to one of the spammings here on the forum, quite keen, had to take the opportunity. :p
     
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  5. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    Sounds of AC cars have a huge quality variation, some are excellent, some are good, some are okay, some are - well, sub-optimal :) Sounds of Raceroom cars are gereally on a high quality level, so sound in raceroom has more consistency in its quality shown. Some cars in AC have now sounds that could compoete with raceroom. But most do not. Taken for itself and without cmparing, I think its fair to say that A sound suite is okay, solid.

    Raceroom is the benchmark in the car sound department. And OMSI. Yes, OMSI.
     
  6. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    Note what I said and what Aris gets quoted with in this post:
    https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/the-assetto-corsa-thread.2562/page-71#post-117698

    The difference may be due to AC using the full original physics suite one very AI car, somethign where other sims take shortcuts and priovde the aI cars with simplified models, to save CPU resources.

    Who knows, maybe Stefano one day may be able to code advanced drifting and driving techniques for the AI cars, as Aris described are lacking right now.

    Myself, I can only report more and more positive AI experiences that i had since yesterday. But mind you: you have to play with the aggression slider depending on the cars you race against. The faster and more sensitive, "hysteric" the cars are, the less aggression you want to use. Vary it between lets say 65 (for modern F1 open wheelers, hypercars and and such) and 85 or even more (for slow street cars) . There is no one-size-fits-all setting. Tracks (surface obstacles, curbs) also play a roll.

    I wish AC would offer an adaptive AI option like Raceroom has. It works so damn well in Raceroom.
     
  7. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    It's already kind of coded. I remember a coding stream where Stefano showed off the Maserati 250 and the AI driving it without the stability assist (that is why they get better corner exit speed in old cars, they don't have to fight the oversteer) - the AI did a decent job of drifting out of the corner. The problem was, they were slow, and would bump into each other often, so that is why this was left out. As for purposeful drifting, I doubt it will ever happen. Seeing how Stefano argued physics with people who drift in real life and his know it all attitude, I think this might even be for the better. All you need to do is just look at the "drift tuned" versions of the cars and their setups, and anyone with basic knowledge of the art could tell you, they know squat about making a car go sideways properly.


    Honestly, I doubt that Stefano will ever touch the AI again. Seeing how everyone is praising it, they will move on to what Assetto is all about - selling people more boring cars. And honestly, the fact that Stefano is the only guy who is working on code and who knows this stuff is also what is holding Assetto back. Also, there is his attitude. Honestly, I wouldn't hold much hope for Assetto after the end of this year. They will make one more DLC and move on to either making a sequel or doing something else. Autumn will bring us pCARS 2, and if it's everything people with beta access say it is, it might just be what everyone expected the first one to be and maybe more, so at this point, Assetto will be seriously behind when it comes to racing. And if this isn't enough, Forza 7 will come to PC, so all those street car fans and drifters will have little reason to play AC. The game is three years old, and you'd have to be completely ignorant to how the industry works, not to realise that it's time is fading. So don't get your hopes up on new features, AC has already more of those than the initial puny ambitions of the devs covered. 1 or 2 more DLCs and that's it. This is the last year AC is going to see any updates IMHO.
     
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  8. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    That is several tyre models and some physics changes back in time, and the AI also has seen fundamental changes. I think what Aris said and explained why old cars are slow in turns and newer cars do the same turn faster, is the thing to now focus on. It is info from the source just a few days old. Stefanos video is 1 or even 1 and a half years old.

    Do not count out Stefano. Thats the lkesson i have learned. Becasue like you now, after the past update, which featuzred no touching of the AI at all, I thought the same like you: this is how it will remain to be, for Stefano is not working on the AI anymore. Obviousy, he proved me wrong. With fanfares. Also, maybe it is against his ego's pride to leave things in an unfinished state. He seems to be quite a perfectionist man. With now plenty of money, and thus: time as much as he needs.
     
  9. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Well-Known Member

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    AC is already seriously behind when it comes to racing, they don't need external help for that.
    It's good for collecting cars and skins, some mod tracks are better than original Kunos (must not be too difficult), and hotlapping can be kind of fun. Immersion wise: non existing.
    Driving from cockpit view, most cars are looking good and detailed (even a lot of the mod cars), closer to pCars than other sims I must admit. Just wonder why they don't enable their dashboard ODO meters to work like in pCars ? Why are engine temps (water and oil) not shown ? I saw some of the new cars reveal "working temps" but I was told it was still fake.

    Btw: what's with the new added "wind algorithm" ? I tried each and every setting on various tracks. I feel nothing at all, not even in the Abarth AC.

    And racing? Even the new "much praised" AI does not help. It is still crap compared to either R3E, RF2, AMS and pCars in my book. I spend two days racing (mainly to compare AI) in all five of my sims (no open wheelers because I realise pCars AI is way to aggressive in them), but - though they all are different - I can live with all of them except AC's.
     
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  10. F1Aussie

    F1Aussie Well-Known Member

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    had my first race in more than 6months tonight on ac due to the improved ai, that are excellent, sound was disappointing though, had a go at the McLaren gt3 and on downshift it really did sound like a truck downshifting, was really odd and out of place.
     
  11. Mike S

    Mike S Member

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    I'd pretty much abandoned AC but i'm back and playing it more now than ever. The AI is great and to be honest I think its the most complete sim out there right now. Sound is the big area that's holding it back. I've tried some audiolords and fonsecker add-ons but they're hit and miss. The FFB is also pretty decent as long as you remember that it needs a spring setting.

    I'll also say this. I much rather pay $7 for six or seven cars than $4 for one car with one livery. R3E....are you listening....i'm talking about you. ;)
     
  12. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    Whoa, whoa, whoa! What do you mean by spring setting? Is there something I'm missing?
     
  13. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    Then you have no real feeling of AC at all. The differences are subtle, like many of the physics advantages of AC's physics engine are subtle as well. You realise the wind when noticing that the car is in nuances not behaving on a certain part of the track like your remembered it did last time, or the cornerning manouver needs to be driven slightly different than like you are used to do it. Its this "weired, what is that?"-kind of effect

    Its real a difference, but it is subtle. Do not expect a laser light show. I took some time to identify it myself, too.

    On your racing experiences and the aI dissapointing you, I must shrug my shoulders. What you say you see, is not what I am seeing. Another race at Magione today, 15 laps in Abarths, once again had me rubbing doors with the AI all the time, and fighting in turns 3 wide. Phantastic, Raceroom currently can't do it better. Just as I said: the aI slider must be played with, the more "primadonna" the cars are, the less aggression you want. I vary it from 70-85.
     
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  14. Cheeseman

    Cheeseman Well-Known Member

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    I still dislike the racing in AC, the AI improvements are great but it still feels like a bad racing game due to how many classes are setup and the messy car list that made almost every class an imbalanced mess with the new AI amplified the poor classing/car selection in the game. None of the classes has BoP too which made it even more of an imbalanced mess. If not, you race the class as a solo class which is no fun compared to the variety of cars in many classes you can get in R3E/pcars/various Codemasters games. Not to forget, there is a lack of tracks in AC. Depending on often low-quality mod tracks is not a solution to the problem as proper game developers still can build far better tracks than most modders. At the end, it is still a hotlap/trackday racing game, except it has good AI now.

    AC may have great physics or AI, it is still a bad racing game because the entire game's car line up and game design are badly implemented. I still think R3E, AMS and various Codemasters games still offer far better racing experience than AC. Even pcars with flawed AI more fun to race than AC's many unbalanced class. Even AC's most expanded class, GT3s, aren't as good as the competitors that offering the same type of vehicles. There are some really fantastic cars in AC, I had come to the point that I got really bored of racing them as a single make when Kunos have the capabilities to expand the class with other licensed manufacturers.

    I just hope R3E will get GT4 soon, GT4s are fun in Pcars but they have quite a small selection of cars. AC's GT4 is just a god damn mess of mismatched cars. Hopefully, R3E can bring in a larger class with more cars.
     
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    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  15. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    I agree to quite some degree that as a race EVENT simulator, AC trails behind Raceroom, and by quite a gap. But I have learned how to combine cars of my liking so that they are on the same level, more or less, and I am more into the slower sportscars and small sportscars and their likes anyway. raceroom does a better job in presenting the race, creatign the atmosphere, and having mandatory pitstops (which in single player still are not there in AC...). Also, the AI tends to create a different spread pattern of the cars, thinning the lines with small clusters here and there, while in raceroom the pack stays together for a bit longer time. This difference however is not big eniozgh for me as if i woudl care.

    Generally, just using the "sports cars" and "small sports cars" labels in car selections creen for AI cars, works well enough. Obviously, the "GT3" tab also works well. These, and the Race Abarths I use most.

    Or you go for unifomred car fields: everybody drives the same car. That has its advanatges.

    Newly arrived, i will use both TT Audis there are a lot form now on, I like them, they are amongst my favourites, like in Raceroom as well.

    So, that you cannot have mixed car fields of cars with comparable performance levels is a claim I must reject if it is made this generally. One just has to know what goes together, and what not. Raceroom has the more comfortable approach here, but then, it also has a different focus than AC. Both sims WANT to make things differently, and that is okay.

    On mod tracks yes or no, I just said it some days ago, there are some that are exceptionallyy good and sometimes even better looking than default tracks, and then there are many that are absolutely worth to be used. The majority of tracks in the mods sections are indeed mediocre, but then - you have over 300 tracks to chose from, so... If somebody says he doe snot use even the very good mod tracks, then this is his deciison, and his loss. But it is not AC's fault.

    Some days ago I posted what I consider to be some of the very best must have tracks there are: Barbagallo, Blackwood, Bridgehampton, Donington, Grobnik, Kareliaring, Luccaring, Mills Metropark, Riverside, Virginia, I add Lake Louise and Transfagarasan for the slightly different cruise... These tracks I use as often as the default ones, they stand equally beside Kunos tracks on my using list. Lucca is the visually most detailed track available for AC, leaving any Kunos track behind (just lower the AI aggression on it, else it tries to overtake over the curbs, whcih often spells desaster there, slower cars are better to be used in SP races there).
     
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  16. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    I just did a few short 5-lap AI races in Assetto and... Project CARS. I have said this several times, but I do think that CARS has actually quite good AI. I'd even say that when you find the sweet spot in the difficulty setting, the overall racing experience can better than in Raceroom with it's new aggression system, depending on the car and track combo.

    If I was to sum up, AC takes first place when it comes to AI clean racing, and CARS goes in second and Raceroom dead last. Keep in mind that this is a personal opinion with the difficulty tuned to how I drive. I did not try anything too difficult - 86 in both AC, 25 aggression and 55 overall in CARS. In R3E I generally run something like 86-90 depending on the car and track and I usually win from about 10th possession, provided I don't get wrecked. In AC it depends on the car and how well I drive a given track, but GT3 on the GP Ring, it's not too difficult win on the given settings. I could probably go higher in each sim, but that would require getting a well earned rest and racing in the morning after a tasty breakfast lol.

    Anyway, if I was to make a rough estimation, in all the sims the AI performs similarly on a race scale. So you will see an equal amount of overtaking aggression and mistakes sometimes ending in DNFs. There is a bunch of nuances to each game and obviously that makes all the difference, but I was focusing mainly on the racing experience and battling other cars on the track.

    Let's get Raceroom out of the way first. I did not play it today, but I spent most of the weekend on it, so I have fresh memories to compare. Their level of aggression can sometimes be absurd, so you need to be extra careful around them and sometimes just let them pass, because collision physics. It can sometimes be frustrating, but what is most annoying is the amount of little butt-shunts you get from them and you really feel that in the wheel provided you are still on track. However, once you pass someone and don't make a mistake within a lap, you probably won't see them again. What I mean is, they hardly try to get back at you, unless there is an opportunity to wreck you. On higher difficulties, you can experience some good battles, but if you aren't very fast and have to lower the level, it's going to be mostly about avoiding contact rather then crazy chases.

    Assetto seems pretty much similar now, but will less punishing contact. Again, unless you are fast and can ramp that slider up, you won't have to worry much about that rear view mirror once you make a successful move. Then there are the straights which is basically how the AI difficulty is handled - at 100% they drive full tilt and on lower settings they get slower on the straights. This something that is really bugging me, since I can never keep up with them past 90%, unless I spend a lot of time on setups and practice and run longer races, which I have no time for recently, but at the same time, it does feel kind of stupid, when I am passing 3 dudes on the straight at Monza with little effort and they don't try to push it one bit when I am side by side. As far a battling goes, I can see it on replays, but I can hardly notice it when I am driving. And again, a lot of the moves they make, even on 100% aggression seem kind of fake, they still have a hard time following through with overtaking, when a human could easily pull it off. And after like 2-3 laps, the race settles down significantly. They are also not that eager to gain the best position right after the start. Overall, it's not bad, but again, driving with older cars, one can see a regression, since they crash a lot and the 99% CPU usage bug is really annoying when cars start flying off track and this again renders stuff like the Ford GT completely unplayable on some tracks that require hard braking into chicanes and tight hairpins.

    CARS on the other hand is a weird experience. I have not played it in some time and I did not try anything too fast, no open wheelers and no rain as that would require me to fiddle with the difficulty quite a lot and adjust my driving. However, the 86 Rocket Bunny on Watkins with some BMWs, Mustangs and Astons was to my surprise the best racing experience in quite a while. First off, AI fight for position right after the start. I was overtaken immediately by two Mustangs before the first corner and I couldn't do anything about it (damn turbo!). After that the race was all about corners and mostly exits rather than entries. But since was just a 5 lap race and some cars actually are faster, there was constant battle throughout the field, which I liked very much. After 2 laps I was battling over 10th with another 86 and a bit of a gap to the guy behind me. What a battle it was! The guy was blocking insides and seemed to drive faster the closer I got. Many side by side situation emerged and I also saw other AI fighting hard in front of me. I eventually finished just behind him, about 0.4 of a second. Nobody bumped into me throughout the whole race, although I did trade paint with one guy as I refused to give my position away. If I wanted to be mean, I could have shunned him off the track and the collision physics would not be a problem. As far as racing, as in fighting for position on track, I'd say this was probably the best experience out of the three. I could really fight without fearing a slight tap might end the race for me and overtaking was a process, rather then a one off event that you just do and move on to the next target. The only thing that actually sucks in CARS' AI is the track cutting. I understand why it happens and it kind of makes sense - the AI just sometimes being blocked by another car cuts the corner to avoid contact or is sometimes pushed out of the track (I did not notice corner cutting, when no other cars were in close proximity to a given bot). But I do think it is a bit extreme. Another huge drawback is the really relaxed penalty system - you really have to go full mental destruction derby mode, to see a yellow flag. But at the same time, you can use that to your advantage and do some Forza-style overtaking, if you feel like it. Git rekt, AI! :)

    I would say that this surprised me quite a bit, but at the same time it makes the new AI in Assetto that much more disappointing. It's not that I am hell bent on criticising, but again, the racing is good, but far from exhilarating and a good chunk of safety was sacrificed as well some car and track combos not being a viable option for fun.
     
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  17. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    I say again - third or fourth time :) - a lot of the results to be seen with AC's AI depends on the aggression setting, it regulates how aggressively it goes for chances to overtake, or waits for better situations. It makes a huge diference, a very huge. If the track has "destructive curbs" and slippery sides, and/or ther cars are easy to get unsettled, you want to tune down the aggression slider, that makes the AI becoming less daunting to even leave the track to get beyond you.

    With AI cars behind you, one never shall forget that they need time to react to what you are doing, especially AC with its AI using the same full physic combo as the player car. If you break or manouver too aggressively, they cannot do differently but must contact you. Since two years I say that imo the overwhelming majority of complains about the AI divebombing into drivers or just waiting to wreck them, comes from not the AI being this evil, but players being too aggressive, and unaware about the situation around them. I tend to rate 9 out of 10 such situations as "player's fault". And it simply almost never happens to me. Again, like the aggression slider in AC, the kind of cars also play a role. The more "primadonna" a car is, the more careful I would be in its vicinty and especially when I am in front of it.

    And yes, sometimes you just have to accept that the other will not give up when being beside you, like yourself. Then either you make a wise decision and decide that there will come a better minute to pick a fight, or you show that crashing and loosing the race cannot scare a stubborn man - with the forseeable result. Your choice.

    I find both AIs, AC'S and RR's, being very good in trying their best to asvoid crashing into the player. But sometimes this is not possible anymore without violating the laws of physics. I have had many good expeirneces with Audi TTs at Anderstorp in Raceroom, and plenty of door-to-door fighting and bumper contactsa, minor huggings and exchanging paint samples. I cannot complain about the Ai shooting me off the track or not avpoioding a colloision that was avoidable. In AC, replays show as well that the AI sometimes desperately wags its tail in order to trying hard avoiding to slam into me becasue I did somethign stupid in front of it - and almostr always it is successful in that.

    Consider to tone down your own aggressiveness, maybe?! ;) In order to score points, one must complete the race. So pick the right times for fighting - and the right times to pull back. And have good situational awareness for what goes on around you. I think of races as plane dogfights in two dimensions. And anticipation - seeing in advance what is about to happen, is coming at you, is developing before you - is decisive. Anticipation trumps so many other things in racing, I am surprised that I see it being recommended and advised for so rarely.

    Situational awareness, and anticipation, and leaving the AI car behind you the time and space it needs to obey the laws of physics without hitting you. Part of why I am not one of the fastest drivers, but even a relatively slow one, is a lot due to the above. But on public servers, I am one of those few guys that almost never crashes, never collide with somebody, and never get involved in some mass collision drama, but find a way through. I survive by this, were many others do not. Situational awareness - and anticpating things. Its key. And I think it is the reason why I get along with the AI so well, even with the second last AI in raceroom that so many people found to aggressive before the last update toned it down again - I LOVED it!! And no, I hardly ever was shot off or spinned out.

    Here is a new video showing the new AC-AI's capability to overtake and to rip through the field like a hot knife through butter, if the car is like that. Aggression is set to 45%. The focus car, the Toyota Hybrid, is an AI car. That is effectively multi-class racing.

    http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/assetto-corsa-ai-video-and-massarutto-statement.136108/
     
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    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  18. mmaruda

    mmaruda Well-Known Member

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    Tried to do some racing in the older Prosches and my conclusion is Stefano clearly did not bother to test older cars. I tried the Porsche 917 and apparently it's a fork-lift now in the hands of the new AI. They rearend each-other in tight corners and chicanes and thanks to Assetto's magnificent collision physics, the 917 slide under one-another like a spatula under pancaces.
     
  19. Skybird

    Skybird Well-Known Member

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    I just finished testing it, you did not say which trackk, so I tested on three.

    Porsche 717K's at Brands Hatch full circuit, AI 92, range 4, aggression 85. I watched it for the first two laps. clean racing, no accidents, no nothing. Attempts to overtake, mostly unsuccessful, moving over the curbs.

    Porsche 717k's at Red Bull Ring, full circuit, AI 92, range 4, aggression 100 (!). Watched it for two rounds. They aggressively moved over the curbs, some move dover the grass when they got carried out of a turn too wide, bot no crashes or accidents, clean racing with some temper in it for sure, but no incidents.

    Porsche 717K's at Monza 1966 full circuit, AI 95, range 3, aggression 100. two laps watched. Since there are less curbs than on modern tracks, severla cars brought themselves into needless troubles when touching the grass and loosing traction and grip, one crashed into the wall after it got itself spinning that way. Another car flew out of the steep turn when trying to overtake another one on the outside, while being in the steep turn (!). They have guts, you gotta give it to them. :D In seocnd lap one car caused a mass collision after it touched the grass, got into a spin, went into a wall, got reflected and crashed into the pack following it closely. That took out 5 or 6 cars.

    Repeated the same setting, just reduced aggression from 100 to 65. Still, a couple of cars touched the grass, but since they were not as aggressiovely piushign a sbefore, they remained in control and did not crash or spin. No events elsewise. No accidents, no nothing. Two laps.

    Obviously, the cars are very unsettled at historic Monza, the track is extremely bumpy. The cars rock like broncos on hot coals. Genewrally, Monza 1966 is a very dangeorus track. And it should be like that, becasue in reality it was that as well.

    Really, mmaruda, I have no idea what you talk about or what you did. Forklifters? I saw nothing even close to that.

    The two most critical, dangerous tracks for the AI I found so far, are Lucca Ring and Bilsterberg. There are some tricky curbs that really send cars flying that go over them too fast and too aggressively. But even this problem I could cure by reducing the aggressiveness to 50 or below, so that the AI does not make so aggressive attempts to overtake that it moves over these curbs.
     
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    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  20. Mike S

    Mike S Member

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    If you have a thrustmaster product for example, in the control panel you need to set it at 100% spring or somewhere above 50% at least. If you leave it at 0, which is common for a lot of people you lose the understeer feedback from AC and it makes the steering feel kinda numb and lifeless.

    Give it a try if you aren't already.