Thoughts on new physics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SunnySunday, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. SunnySunday

    SunnySunday Well-Known Member

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    While I do think the new physics does have big improvements on overall handling and makes the cars more predictable and natural feeling I can't help but to feel like grip levels have gone the wrong way. What I thought raceroom succeeded in compared to other driving simulations was that the cars did feel like they had lots of grip and less sliding around. *Edited some bad formulation*

    I do think the GTR3 class feels pretty darn good, but other classes like gtr4, wtcr, porsche cup, 934, gtr2 etc are sliding all over the place. They feel almost like the tires are made out of wood, which was always my same complaint with Assetto corsa, something that I feel is fixed for ACC. Maybe it is a limitation in the tire physics of raceroom? Not trying to bash anyones work I do appreciate all the work that sector 3 are putting into the game. And I do still enjoy the new physics but I also want to voice my opinion on the game to help developers get an idea what the playerbase is thinking.

    So please, voice your opinion on the updated physics. Do you think it is heading in the right direction?
     
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    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  2. Christian Göpfert

    Christian Göpfert Topological Agitator Beta tester

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    I'm sure @Alex Hodgkinson will gladly explain his general aproach to the tyre physics when he finds the time (he's pretty busy atm ^^).
    What I can share is that he does have a specific idea for each car's tyre physics and they are always based on a number of variables. For the 934 f.e. the idea was to create a classic cross-ply compound with it's genuine characteristics. When it comes to classes like GT4 or WTCR we have to face the issue of series regulated spec tyres, which, according to rl driver feedback and the data at hand, aren't that great (maybe even by design, so the - often young gun - drivers handle their cars more carefully).
    Just as an example, notice how, even at low speeds, the GT4 Cayman steps out here.
     
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  3. David Peres

    David Peres Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the new physics are indeed heading in the right direction for sure, and I disagree that the GTR4, GTR2 and WTCR cars are sliding all over the place. The Porsche 934 does slide a lot, but that car is running on historic tires.

    In the past some sims made the error of being way too unforgiving and harder than real live, but now it seems that some simracers are reacting against that phylosophy by going a bit too far in the oposite direction. Yes, tires grip, but they are not magical and I'm pretty sure you can't push them in real life like you can push some old-physics cars in Raceroom, where it's almost impossible to unglue the tires from the road no matter what you do (WTCC 16, for example).

    On a sim you don't feel the speed and the car movement like you do in real-life, so when a spin happens it's easy to blame it on slidey physics, when in reality you'll probaly just be more aware of what the car is doing and react better/faster in real-life.

    I never drove a race car with slicks, but watching onboard laps you can see that even GT3 cars will often slide and require some opposite-locking action to prevent spins. I've seen plenty of videos of that happening. If anything, from some onboards I've seen sometimes it seems like Raceroom GT3 cars might still be a bit more forgiving than real life, but that may be due the fact that I usually drive default setups, which are very safe.

    As far as I'm concerned, the new Alex physics are the best thing that happened to this sim since I started playing it 3 years ago. Some months ago I was ready to say goodbye to Raceroom and just stick with Automobilista, but then the new physics kept getting better (the GTR2 cars are amazing) and I came back.
     
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  4. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    I feel they are certainly going in the right direction
    I actually feel the Gt3’s might have too much grip but I’ve never driven one in real life so I don’t really know.

    Re the Gt4’s and the Gt1’s; if you drive within the limits of the tyre they feel great and responsive. Once you find that limit you can then start to push the limit and what I love about these cars is that you can really start to feel and hear the tyre loose grip.

    There is one simple formula that I always apply;
    Car sliding all over the place = Driver going too fast (for his setup)
    There are two solutions to try
    1) slow the fuck down (I say this to myself a lot)
    2) adjust your set up (but still say to yourself “slow the fuck down”)



     
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  5. Paul Darke

    Paul Darke Moderator Beta tester

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    Also remember Alex is learning all the time so there always going to be a progression until we find the "sweet spot".
     
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  6. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    I'll just start with a tiny bit of my background so you can see that have first hand experience to base my work on. I started racing karts in the UK when I was 11 against people like Lewis Hamilton and Jamie Green, won 8 Championships in various classes. From 18 I raced Formula Ford, GT Cup, Mx5 Cup, Mr2 Cup, tested Radicals, a Group C car, historic formula cars, a touring car, and worked full-time as a track-day instructor, driver coach and driving specialist.

    When I took over RaceRoom physics development, I felt that the cars lacked communication. When you're close to the limit in a real car - whatever the type of tyre - they, on the most part, start to really communicate what's going off. What you get is lots of little movements and tiny slides all the time, the car is never glued to the track, it's always dancing. Now, I haven't set out to try to create that synthetically, because I felt that if I focused on the individual parts that make a car's personality, that would come. The first thing was to make the suspension layouts correct and to behave properly, and there's where the FFB improvements came from. The most recent focus has been on tyre data, and bit-by-bit bringing the tyre behaviour in line to what I'd expect. Three parts go in to this; raw data, lots of testing until it feels right, then a real world driver testing it. That carries on until we're all happy. Having said that, we continue to go deeper into the simulation and are adding more and more options/possibilities behind the scenes so it's getting ever-more sophisticated.
     
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  7. RoccoTTS

    RoccoTTS Well-Known Member

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    IMO the new physics are definitely going in the right direction. When i drive the GT1, GT2, GT4,... i do feel more what the car is doing. When you have the feeling the cars is sliding too much, it tells you you're overdriving the car.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  8. SunnySunday

    SunnySunday Well-Known Member

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    Im absolutely not questioning your abilities or knowledge regarding this area. And I also understand that my criticism comes rather personal to your work and I apologize for that.
    I also understand that there are as many opinions on what physics should feel like as there are people driving these games.

    I guess for me it's more the sensation of having to fight against the car much more than running with it. I'm just finding myself getting frustrated much more often now with these cars. I feel often like I lose traction where I shouldn't. And in alot of races I get the feeling of "whoever fucks up the least" wins, rather than who has the best abilities. I know there isn't really a difference but it is.
     
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  9. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    I'll chip in and say that I think the new physics is bloody brilliant too. I think a mistake some make is trying to drive every car in the same manner. The beauty of sims is we can drive so many different types of car that require different approaches to driving them. Learning the characteristics and limits of each car is what makes it fun to me. If I wanted to just go flat out in everything I'd still be playing console games.

    I'm really looking forward to the GT3 cars getting their physics tweak as I do think they let you get away with to much. The GTR2 class is fantastic, you can really feel the cars on the edge of grip when pushing hard.
     
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  10. Fairman

    Fairman Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the GT4 Porsches I even liked them before the latest updates, when ppl complained they are too tailhappy and stuff. And to me it feels like it should, considering that you have something between a hightech racecar like GT3 and a classical Sportscar. And generally , yeah, physics go in the right direction. I know the frustration when you have a car you actually want to drive but you feel unable to control it 100%: Maybe its not your car then and/or it needs some time till you find the right approach...
     
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  11. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Another thing is that each of us have different expectations from a sim/game. Some want it to be as realistic as possible while some want it to be more accessible. As Devs I suppose getting the balance between catering for the two approaches is a tough call....they have to sell content and if everything is to hard to drive then no one buys...

    One thing that sims can't give you is the fear factor, in real life you wouldn't jump into a race car and immediately try to drive at the limit, you have to learn the car and develop the skills to do that. An advantage that iracing has with its safety/licence system is that there are consequences to bad driving so you do alter your approach. (I don't like iracing though, the cars mostly feel very bland to me) If/when some kind of system is incorporated into Raceroom then it will definitely improve online racing as people will actually think about their actions and driving style more.
     
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  12. XXVI Sol

    XXVI Sol Well-Known Member

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    Imo the best sims physicswise are R3E and AC. R3E,before Alex,was a tad towards the sticky-forgiving direction and AC towards the 'the harder the better' direction,both very close to the sweet spot.I think Alex took that sweet spot and made it his home :p cant wait for more
     
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  13. Ami_M3

    Ami_M3 Member

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    I like the direction Raceroom is heading physics wise. The sim is still evolving. Good times ahead. I still wish FFB was a bit more "organic" for a lack of better word (nothing to do with physics), but I have to say I enjoy R3E way more than I used to when I first installed it.
     
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  14. dungbeetle

    dungbeetle Well-Known Member

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    I think that we also have to bear in mind that the hardware/software combination here is not a 'closed system'. There are many different makes and levels of FFB wheels available out there and even the same make of wheel can be set up differently.

    Given that, I would imagine it's almost impossible to program a set of physics and force feedback into a sim that will feel exactly as the developer intended on every available wheel and setup combination.
     
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  15. SunnySunday

    SunnySunday Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I think I wanna take some of my criticism back. The gtr2 and WTCR does feel pretty damn good. I'll pull a move my wife always use "I was feeling cranky"
     
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  16. greamec

    greamec New Member

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    I definitely get this feeling of the tyres on the edge with movement with the lotus gt4. For info
     
  17. Flintenwilly

    Flintenwilly Well-Known Member

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    I think the best class to feeling Alex "magic" is FR-J. I drive them recently to improve my heel&toe skills. One some tracks they are easy to drive(f.e.Hockenheim), you can feel the griplevel very easy. But on other tracks you have a hard time. Sachsenring is one of these. Much elevationchanges and very fast corners only two straights - typical motorcycletrack. On this track the FR-J envolves to beasts, you wished you have at least a little bit of downforce. Getting over the hill after Omega you feel everything gets light, too soon the throttle and youre out, same in the last corner.

    But when you get it right and have patience in you right foot, everything is controlable. This is exacly what I would expect from a midengine car without downforce on a fast motocycletrack full of corners.

    For all I would definetly recommended FR-J (its a free class now) - especially when you have H-Pattern.

    Edit: if you want more "i just sh*t my pants" Moments, drive the FR-J on Bathurst. The downhillsection is just crazy followed by "the chase". Forget battling the AI, on this track youre being battling the car.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  18. RoccoTTS

    RoccoTTS Well-Known Member

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    When i drove the FRj the first time after the physics update, i couldn't drive the car 1 lap without crashing.
    So i decided to learn to drive it again on my home track Zolder. I started driving it very slowly and building up speed gradually.
    After doing this for 20+ laps, i started to understand how to drive this car.
    Now it is one of the most enjoyable and rewarding cars to drive in this game.
     
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  19. benoityip

    benoityip Member

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    So glad we have Alex onboard.

    I love the new physics. As Alex said, I can find the limit of the car much more easily. I can push that 0.1 second much more easily. Wtcr is a good example, it feels very similar to my real car. However, wtcc feels very vague. Wtcc2013 BMW e92 318 felt even more strange.

    Unfortunately, this makes me not willing to drive cars with old physics, such as Audi TT cup, 1992 DTM, skyline r32 and wtcc2013.

    I drive formula junior in the game, very easy to lose rear end, needs time to practise.

    Now I play BMW e92 m3 all of the time, the communication of this car is excellent. I enjoy this car much more than gt3 cars.


    I did not use h pattern and heal and toe in the game, but I use it a lot in real life track days.. in real life, it is much more easier because I can feel the pitch of the car, but not in my rig...
     
  20. higsy

    higsy Well-Known Member

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    One difference that I notice is from track to track. I drive the merc gt3 and at Bathurst it feels pretty good to drive and you feel like you can push the car but I've got a race coming up at Sonoma the feel of the car is different. Both are raced on stock setups. No matter what I do to tweak that setup the car feels skittish on that track.