Toe in/out - wording

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rella, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Rella

    Rella Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I was just wondering if the wording for the toe is correct in R3E. I'm sure you designed it well but for me it feels a bit weird when reading "Vorspur" for the front toe and "Nachspur" for the rear toe. Afaik "Vorspur" is positive and "Nachspur" negative like toe-in and toe-out. So it could be called sth like "Spur vorne" etc.. Btw the english version in R3E doesn't feel much better to me :confused:
    Never realized it and maybe I'm totally wrong. Actually I was astonished at some very fast laptimes and the corresponding unconventional setup ;). Taking my current understanding into account we would have both times a "Nachspur" or "toe out" in the screenshot.
     

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  2. JyriK

    JyriK Well-Known Member

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    While majority of setup guides claim that toe-out in the rear should never be used, in real life for example 1989 Nissan GTP used it to limit understeer, as the rear rolls better. While the wording may be confusing I think it is pretty straightforward. Negative is negative.
     
  3. G.Deurwaerder

    G.Deurwaerder Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, there are riders on here in RR use that setup that is far from reality, and which they called Aliens, yeah right.
    shows yet again, from what I've mentioned here several times that people with a G27 can only drive a setup with this
     
  4. Dale Junior

    Dale Junior Well-Known Member

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    It depends on your personal settings. You can have a toe-in or a toe-out on both axles.

    Toe / Spur:

    [​IMG]
    toe-in / Vorspur = +
    toe-out / Nachspur = -

    They should rename the settings to: toe / Spur. So yes, "Vorspur" and "Nachspur" are wrong notations.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  5. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    That issue is widely known, Georges and many Young Guns are so ambitious that they use any backdoor to ensure victory (at all cost) while us older Gentlemen mostly have a clear sense for Decency and Fairness :). It's no difference in Real Motorsport (just think of the diffusor affair with Redbull Racing a few years ago in F1) but there the technical regulations are very strict, so that you only have a very narrow window to work around it so to say.
    I once digged into a Motorsport Forum where some private (realworld) drivers discussed their settings for Nordschleife (using tuned up Stockcars/Sportscars like BMW E30) and as for the Toe in/out settings they agreed on settings that are standard settings in R3E as well, cause anything extreme would cause a wrong axle geometry for example, making a car undriveable in long terms.
    I also doubt that even with Hightech Racing Cars there is much difference regarding that simple fact, but as R3E cannot simulate each and every physical effect in detail it is possible to use such extreme settings to your advantage.
    Correct me if I´m wrong....btw.
    So my question goes to the S3 Devs ( @J-F Chardon or @Sonat Ozturk or @Hannes Wallstedt ) if they would consider to restrict the setup options within realistic parameters to provide well-balanced (not watered) online racing for all.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  6. J-F Chardon

    J-F Chardon KW Studios Developer

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    Restricting set up parameters within realistic margins is something we try and do already, matching what the teams and drivers are allowed to tweak in real life.
     
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  7. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    Yepp noticed that already but an official statement does the trick , thx ;)
     
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  8. gp2112

    gp2112 New Member

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    What is considered realistic? I was using 2* front/-2* rear for a long time when, by mistake, my toe got set to 4*/-4*. I found the car much more responsive to what my needs were and now use it as baseline.

    Is this a realistic setting?
     
  9. Arthur Spooner

    Arthur Spooner Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK all these settings in RRRE are "toe in" (right?). That means positive numbers are toe in, while negative numbers are actually toe out.

    In real life you usually use toe out on the front axle while using toe in on the rear axle. So you should have negative numbers in front and positive numbers in the back.

    The reason for toe out at the front is the fact that the wheels on the in- and outside will have to follow routes with different radii while cornering. I'm not sure about the toe in in the rear, but I once was told it is to have the outside rearwheel push the rear of the car slightly to the inside when cornering to counteract centrifugal force.

    This is at least my state of knowledge. I'm sure about the front toe out, because I know it from my own experience in years of karting. But since karts have a solid rear axle with the wheels directly mounted to it, there is no such thing as toe setting on karts' rear wheels. So what I wrote about this is only hearsay. Of course there might always be exceptions or I might be plain wrong. ;)

    Realistic values surely depend on steering- and suspension geometry and differ from car to car and from track to track. For example, the tighter a turn is, the more toe out you need in the front. So for a track with more tight turns you will have more toe out, while on tracks with more long and sweeping turns, less toe out should be better.
     
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  10. theravenousbeast

    theravenousbeast Well-Known Member

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    So then why do the 2015 WTCC cars have positive toe on the front?
     
  11. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    Probably because of FWD drive to compensate understeering.....not 100% sure but guess in Rallying positive toe on the Front is more common...
     
  12. theravenousbeast

    theravenousbeast Well-Known Member

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    But the '13 and '14 cars have negative on their default setups. As far as I remember, most sims have had default negative toe on the front on their default. Why the sudden change. Drivability or..?
     
  13. n01sname

    n01sname Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that Sector 3 changed various basic parameters after they included their new tyre physics - they still learn, like us :)
    But as for toe settings @WTCC it's just a good guess on my side...
     
  14. Arthur Spooner

    Arthur Spooner Well-Known Member

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    I'm either totally wrong or this is due to the fact that these cars are fwd and have some kind of extreme setup. Could be the same reason why there is toe in at the rear wheels of rwd cars.
     
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