Different AI level Qualifying/Race

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alexander Asner, Feb 20, 2018.

  1. Alexander Asner

    Alexander Asner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    I would really like to see different AI levels for qualifying and race, Either way fixed or adaptive I run into the same problem. Qualifying and race pace do not fit. AI runs unrealistically fast lap times in qualifying and I end up in a spot in the last third of the field. Then during races the AI creeps around he track and I pass car after car. This is even intensified for the TT cup that I am currently driving because obviously the AI does not take into account that during qualifying no PTP is available which IRL leads to the fact that qualifying laps are regularly slower than race laps.
    Easy solution IMHO would be to be able to set different AI levels for qualifying and race. Shouldn't be so hard to do as the overall AI algorithm can remain untouched.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. nate

    nate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Ratings:
    +874 / 0 / -0
    This sounds completely normal and is akin to racing in the real world too.

    What is most likely happening is when the race starts... all of the cars are bunched up and fighting for position. So this is where the 'stress factor' comes into play. The first few laps of a race in game or in the real world are never going to be lap records or as fast as qualy since you are constantly trying to pass and defend.

    A few laps into the race when cars are spread out more... the AI will be as fast as their qualifying times.

    My personal suggestion... respect the AI in the first few laps while they sort themselves out, and dont push them out of the way or try to divebomb them. Once you get into the natural flow of the race, you will experience what you expect.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. ndwthx1138

    ndwthx1138 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Ratings:
    +101 / 0 / -0
    Post the patch and the AI running without a full fuel load during race, I haven't noticed this. I do not run adaptive AI though. I tend to run 108-112 AI strength. They seem to qualify about 1/2 to 3/4 of a second faster than their race pace (GT3). This seems reasonable considering fuel load and how aggressive one might have their setup. I tear into my tires on lap 3 of a qualifying.

    Does this happen on all tracks for you? All series?
     
  4. Alexander Asner

    Alexander Asner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    Well, I am quite new to the game and currently mainly driving the Audi TT cup. As I said earlier I think the discrepencies are coming from the fact that there is no Push to Pass available during qualifying runs. Therefore IRL qualifying runs are almost identical to race pace or even slower. I guess it is a particular case that is not reproduced by the AI.
     
  5. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I have done loads of customized CS and I am a bit dissapointed about the balance of the game regarding different tracks AND for the most cars classes the quali lap times are much faster than p or r session. The only class so far where the pace seems ok is DTM92. They run about 0,5 sec in quali faster than in p session and in the race itself they are running lap times similar to p session. One problem is that it seems that the AI is running with full fuel load in races. So if you want the AI running as fast as in q session you need to run very long distance races. 40/50 min a last.

    I was also looking for a file where I can adjust the AI level for the different session but could not find any. Christian Göpfert once told me to check for the file championshipdata.xml but as I was not able to locate it I asked again where to find but I recieved no answer.

    With the primer tool I am on my way to figure out something for making the AI running the pace I like to have in any session.

    Next thing ... you need to know that the AI drivers have different skills (for GT3 100% for sure and what I have seen so far this is for all classes). I have made myself an AI selector where I can ensure that my grid I am racing is full of "the best" drivers always. So I have always about 5-6 cars leading the race with changing leaders lap by lap and fighting for the win besides of me.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Alexander Asner

    Alexander Asner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    The file to adjust the championship is no longer there AFAIK. There was one once but after several changes it is no longer there I guess. A also was looking in the primer tool, but I am afraid it does not help as it only helps the adaptive AI find the right level. But once this level is set it is set for the whole race or championship no matter what lines you write with primer tool. Or at least that is what I believe to have found out. Cheerfullyinsane was kind enough to educate me on that.
     
  7. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Ah this seems to be the reason why Mr Göpfert told me to have a look for it. So if it was there in the past dear devs...bring it back to daddy ;):D ... daddy wants to play around with it ...

    I was thinking this way : If you run a CS with AAI the program needs to have a look in the aiadaptionfile for setting its pace regarding car/track combo. I think it will have a look for each race within a cs right before you start the seperate race session. Why ? Because imagine you would set up a cs with AAI but not running it within some time. In this time you are doing other sessions with same car/track combo and you are improving your skills...if an cs with AAI would be set up in a way that after setting it up the AI is immediately collecting all data of the aiadaptionfile for the whole cs it would be wrong regarding your already improved skills. If I would be responsible for this AAI I would ensure that it is just looking for the data file right before the session is starting no matter if its a single race or cs. And IF so you could use the primer tool for sure ! Only thing I have concerns about are the single sessions...this is where I wanted to use this tool for making the single sessions matching much better. But I asume that is not possible as I think the p session and q session times are calculated as the aiadaptionfile just provides the level of race pace.

    But as for all I am talking about in my life I could be wrong :D...not that I am that often ;)
     
  8. Mr_Mints_Taboo

    Mr_Mints_Taboo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +152 / 0 / -0
    To be fair to RaceRoom, this seems to be a problem with most race games - sorry simulators.:)
    Now my answer here will probably not help you, it will no doubt annoy others, but here is how I organise my races. YMMV

    So qualifying is unlikely to put me in an appropriate grid position, and is basically just a hot lap competition anyway, so I choose where I want to place on the grid. You are effectively doing this anyway when you choose the level of AI skill*(See Edit at bottom). For me this position is normally 8th, unless it is a single race at a track I know I am 'good' at (very relative term, believe me!) in which case I will start further up the field, with better competitors, either by choice, or because the AAI is better there.
    Another reason I don't really enjoy qualifying is that if I do really well, I am placed in the dullest (to me) position on the grid: Pole. I can only go backwards from there!

    That's what I do. It's neither realistic or ideal, but I'm a simple soul. I am certainly not suggesting anybody else should do this. Or have to.

    I agree that Sector3 should certainly look at improving the qualifying/racing situation, if only because everything else is so good (Yeah, I'm a fanboy. :))
    I hope they can improve it for people like Alexander and Stef and many other people who would benefit from this (even me!)

    And what Nate didn't say, but could have : It's not like Formula One got the qualifying format sorted out 70 odd years ago and hasn't needed to try to alter it for various reasons. I don't think any form of motorsport has really got it right as what the fans really want (probably) is for the fastest drivers/riders to be at the back and moving through the field. - I can't see that ever happening in competitive motorsport.*
    Nobody will ever totally agree with qualifying rules and results unless their man is on pole that day.

    iRacing could achieve this with grids based on reverse iRating - Any theories on the size of explosion that would cause? :screamcat::screamcat::screamcat:

    Edit: *You are effectively doing this anyway when you choose the level of AI skill.
    If the system worked, that is. Or you had separate qualifying and race levels.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Alexander Asner

    Alexander Asner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    BTW I am a fanboy too and the above par AI (compared to other racing simulations) is why I jumped on the RR bandwagon in the first place. I have great races of 30 minutes and longer in competitive traffic with lots of position changes without getting taken out by the AI. I really appreciate it which is why I ask for this to be corrected at all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Stef van Remy

    Stef van Remy Guest

    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Talking about GT3 ... that is NOT correct ! Believe me I have loads of data ... they run about 2-2.5 (!!!) sec faster in quali than in p or r session ! 100% for sure on almost all tracks ! And this is a problem. If you don´t believe me lets test together...Teamspeak and we will do it together. I am a data messi and having a look on my 46 (!) excel sheets show me 2-2,5 seconds faster.

    This is why I stopped GT3 championships ... ME (!!!) the one who has just customized cs in his mind since he was a little boy...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Alexander Asner

    Alexander Asner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    I found a very easy workaround for that. In the races just set qualifying to "no" and do practice only. RR will take over your practice place as grid place in the race and voila, problem solved.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Alexander Asner

    Alexander Asner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Ratings:
    +39 / 0 / -0
    Sorry, that was wrong. Just a coincidence.
     
  13. nate

    nate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Ratings:
    +874 / 0 / -0
    Yeah, it seems this is more of a problem than I initially thought.

    I have been so used to the AI being 'slow' at the starts of races from being bunched up and stressed out, that I thought this was the bulk of the problem here. Along with the date that this thread was posted, since there wasnt anything in an update immediately before this thread was posted that would have affected this.

    After some of my own investigation here from trying to figure out what was going on, it seems that this stems from a change in the big November patch that made the AI pace faster in qualifying than in race sessions. I've been running a lot of races at Zhuhai lately, and this is pretty noticeable there. Depending on class, the AI pace will be 1.5-2.5s slower in a race session.

    I dont recall why that change was made back in November, but it may have been done to add more realism, since pretty much any series you come across in the real world qualifies much faster than the best racing laps are. It seems that this may have been a bit overdone, as racing recently has been less than savory to me :p

    Dont expect this to be fixed by next week, but it will be investigated so a good solution is found.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. majuh

    majuh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2015
    Ratings:
    +185 / 0 / -0
    In real life, this is only due to higher fuel loads and tyre wear during the races. There should be no need for different AI levels between qualifying and race.