I get rammed out the track and when I come back, bam! I get a drive thru penalty for cutting track. Sounds unfair right? Yeah, but it´s happened a lot to me during online races. Has it happened to you? What are your thoughts about it?
Computers have no knowledge of "fair" rules, they just do whatever coders tell them to do. But the problem is : it is very difficult. And that is an understatement. What bothers me, is that I go wide in a corner, get 2 (or even 4 wheels) on the grass, lose a lot of time, and still get a penalty for "cutting track". Also that is not fair, since I even lost time in the process. But I KNOW you can run wide on a corner, and win time. But often these corners don't have grass. Anyway, the point is : a FAIR system would be very hard to be working correctly. Still, it will be some day, but not yet. I'd rather have coders spend time on tracks or cars or even AI behaviour, than those track rules. Cause in the end you can just ignore all rules.
If you don't gain time while being off track you don't get penalized, so step of the throttle, maybe even brake a little after being pushed off track and you can avoid penalties.
Why not say the game simply means that you get no penalty if you off the track needed more time for a curve (chicane), as it would take on the track. Rams me one of the track, and I lose 3 Seks off the track, it was 100% no shortcut. These are my 2 cents to this.
Thats not true, I was rammed in the back after the start on Nord VLN, the other car send me straight off the track spinning. Guess who got the penalty.
Relative to what? As you said, it's a computer, it has to work with definite variables. And the only comparison it can work with is the AI. If you gain time relative to how fast the AI would cover the same distance on track you have to "give back" the time you gained, i.e. get a slow down penalty. That's also why the slow down timer counts down slower or faster depending on your velocity. If you reduce your speed during a slow down the timer will start ticking down faster as you're giving back the time gained faster (again, relative to how fast the AI would cover the distance you're covering at that moment). Easy test for all this: Go wide and don't accelerate but instead coast until you're back on track. All that being said, there are certain (theoretical) situations where you might get pushed so hard that even braking won't slow you down enough to avoid a penalty, that's why I said and not that you definitely will each and every time.
Honestly, I think the penalty system is a lill more harsh since the last major update. Two examples: Last Tuesday I had an oversteering DTM-car while entering the Vodafone-Corner at Zandvoort GP. I was able to counteract, but I hit the grass at the inside. Result was a penalty for cutting the track, although I've already lost a huge amount of time to avoid a spinning car. On Friday we did a quick afterrace with the RUF GT3 at the Hockenheimring. I barely touched the inner curb at the hairpin, and again I got a penalty for cutting. For sure you shouldnt touch this curb, but if you are overtaking and there is a car at your left, you need to drive a very tight line to avoid a collision. It is understandable that a software has only some variables to decide if a penalty has to be given, and will never be as critical as a human being. But a penalty as described by @c3lix could be relative easy avoided, if the software checked if the potential "sinner" had a contact with another car within the last second. If there was a contact, no penalty should occur. If a car was spinning before leaving the track, also no penalty. If a car is slowing down while off track, no penalty. I always thought the game recognises especially the last part, but I was proven otherwise. A couple of weeks ago we had a race at Spielberg. Straight after the start I was pushed out at the first corner of the track, because I had not one but two cars on my right side, and there was plain and simple not enough room. I just received a warning for being off track, because I wasnt accelerating. All fine at this point. We were on our way to the second corner, I saw a gap at the right side and filled it. Another car on the left side was hit from behind, spinning to the right, hitting me and I was again pushed off the track, which resulted this time into a drive through. Although I was still braking not to crash into other cars.
And how should the game know that you've lost time by avoiding a spin or a crash? (Again relative to what, the other players or AI?) So all you'd need to do is touch another car on purpose and you'd be free to go wide or even cut chicanes whenever you want. As above, it does, but only relative to how fast the AI can go around that corner. It doesn't matter if you brake or not, all that matters is whether you're covering a certain length of the track faster than the AI would while being out of bounds. As before, if it wouldn't work like that you could cut through any chicane (let's say Monza T1) at high speed and all you'd need to do to avoid a penalty would be to brake while you're outside the track limits. You would still be able to pass the chicane way faster than you would if you stayed within the track limits.
Never said it is an easy task to find the best solution. If I had the big deal ideas, I would be earning a lot more bucks each month. It should be possible to recognise if I car was starting to spin, just by comparing the speed of the tires. Is there a difference? I've lost time compared to the other cars on track. Well, good example that we need to find a more possible solution, which is a working process. Got one yourself?
Again, prone to abuse. You'd only need to do a little drift before going off track and you'd be save from being penalized. Yes there is, how can the game know that you lost time relative to other people currently on track and what was the reason for that? A system like this needs a point of reference, so what should that be? Can't be the other drivers laptime, cause they haven't finished their lap yet. Can't be the distance/delta times, because those will always differ slightly depending on when a car starts to accelerate out of a corner. Can't be their relative speed, the game can't know you are slower because you were avoiding a crash or simply because you were slower than the other drivers. And which car curently on track should be used as the reference? Any car, the fastest car or maybe the slowest car or the car ahead of your car? Heh, well I didn't start this discussion, I didn't say the system is broken or unfair. I'm just telling you how the current system works and why any suggestion I've come across until now doesn't work or would make things worse. I think the current system works pretty well. There's room for improvement (I'd say the reference speed could be raised a little so penalties aren't handed out as easily) but considering all possible situations and circumstances it is probably as good as it can get.
Agree up to a point, I've found most penalty points around most tracks will indeed ignore the penalty if you take your foot off the throttle or brake but annoyingly some most certainly don't, I've been pushed wide gone off gas and braked got myself back on track and got a 4 sec penalty, I'm also beginning to think that certain people know this, so follow you till that point then use you as a brake for the corner, gaining time themselves and incurring the penalty on you! It's a dark world this racing malarky, have only managed to finish 2 races on the Nords due to being wiped out or nudged off and as for the aggressive overtaking manoeuvres people deem ok belies belief, using an opponent as a brake to make the apex of a corner is not a legit move! Neither is waiting for a fast sweeping bend then dabbing the brakes mid corner forcing you to take evasive action which inevitably ends in disaster for not only you but others behind, presuming that the physics favour the lead car as 90% of the time if contact happens, Mr brake dabber carries on while I pirouette my way through the undergrowth! You know who you are! So do I!!!!!
So at least we found an accordance. Some boundaries could be lifted a lill, e.g the mentioned curb at Hockenheim. You arent cutting there for sure, and you arent gaining time at all. And honestly, sometimes I wish for a server feature, to turn off the penalty for a certain amount of time. In real life races there are usually no penalties right after the start, if you leave the track. We all know the first corner is always a hell hole if everyone wants to gain one or more positions, so many times you are forced to leave the track, avoiding a collision. As you've said, the game cant know the reason, it just reacts to your position on the track. By giving the server host the opportunity to disable the penalty system for e.g. 30/60/90/whatever seconds, this problem would be solved. Just an idea. Another one would be a delayed time penalty. We dont use time penalty anymore, because it is always a pain for the following car. Usually you are at the best possible line and so is the car behind. Now you've earned yourself a time penalty and you have a car behind you. Where should he go if you are getting slow? So the idea behind the delayed penalty is simple: A clean racer would move his butt out of the way, if the game tells him, he will be punished in five or ten seconds. Wont work with idiots, but who wants to race with morons anyway.
Indeed, but it's not a bad one. Yet it kinda bears the same flaw as most "dynamic" suggestions because people might abuse it if they are aware of it. Imagine such a server, first 60 seconds no penalties. Who's to stop the leader (and everybody else) after turn 1 chaos to abuse this timeframe and cut every possible corner? The most realistic suggestion so far is good old time added penaties. You get notified when you breach a rule, but you don't get penalized straight away but instead get a time penalty of xx seconds added to your race result. That way you don't "stand around" on track and become a hazard for other people but you'd still get punished. And I for one see all those measures only as an ultima ratio for (public) events or servers. If you race in a league or community I would assume you're dealing more or less trustworthy individuals and penalties for cutting aren't needed as nobody would do it on purpose anyway. For public events, maybe even events where prizes are awarded, I think there's no real alternative to a rather strict system.
I usually play on the servers that have cut track penalties off, I race knowing the rules and follow them as best as I can, if I run wide I slow down, and come back safely on the track. Basically I try to drive and handle the situation as if I was really in the car, and actually racing. You wouldn't need penalties if everyone played "fair", but its a game, and as such shit happens. Roll your eyes and play your game, don't let others ruin something you enjoy. At the end of the race you did your best, the other person cheated for whatever reason they might justify to themselves (BECAUSE WINNER), such is life League races are different, as the competition is more "serious" so you are less likely to come across this. At the end of the day its a game, and some will choose to abuse the game because winning is everything, sadly it means jack shit as I said before, its just a video game, and nobody outside of a select few other gamers care about you winning. In fact I would say almost no one cares. So on that point, don't sweat it buddy, go race, and do your best to be the cleanest and most honest driver possible, its all about personal reward and satisfaction. I would imagine it gets pretty boring being at the front while the rest of the pack is actually racing. I really don't care who P1 is, I just like to race with other players, especially close door to door action In Conclusion: If everyone tried their hardest to drive clean and safe, and didn't abuse the game/track/car limits, slow down/drive through penalties wouldn't even be needed in these video games. However, because it is a video game with no real world value or consequence, and people are people, deal with it. Just go on to the next race, because unlike the real world you can just hit ESC, quit and join another race INSTANTLY. DT penalties should still exist for speeding in the pit lane, or jumping the start, or based on per series regulations. Disclaimer: All content in this post is just personal opinion and has no merit or value, nor is it spoken truth or law.
No one. If they know this feature is active. That's why I wrote it should be an available option within the server settings, and not you never get a penalty within the given timeframe. Now I have to play the counterpart, maybe because I did some races on public servers in the past. As soon as a certain kind of racers get punished, they act like a bull in a china shop, because their race is already destroyed. Now image one of those crash kids, who has already received some extra time. Well, I am racing with ~20 other trustworthy ppl, but we decided to use penaltys, because someting is missing without them. OK, next one will propably without any penalties, because we noticed yesterday you cant drive to the pit at the Hungaroring with the RUF RT12R GTR3 without getting a penalty. We'll recheck this evening and if this problem still occurs, S3 will be notified. But back 2 topic. I think we can agree there will never be a perfect solution, but some improvements can be made. My $0.02
I agree, existing penalties should be optimized and the time added method could be added as an additional ruleset. You're absolutely right in saying that this method comes with it's own set of problems. Exactly the scenario you mentioned would probably happen, people thinking they won't be able to win anyway so they go for the leader or the person that might have pushed them into getting that penalty and seek retaliation. But this can happen with the rulesets we have right now too, nobody can stop a driver from waiting until the leader is about to lap him, only to then try and ruin this persons race. I think there is no failsafe method, you can't prevent people from being stupid and/or angry. I guess the most realistic option for mp races would be to introduce race official slots to the server menu. The persons who play this role don't drive but act as a steward and can hand out penalties after reviewing incidents. But this option would require a lot of coding work, many new features to be introduced, so I'm rather sceptic we'll ever see this possibility.