Hi Almost everyone here should know that we have the choice between two kind of pedals set for sim racing: The "traditional" one with potentiometer (like Logitech and Thrustmaster set), and the more advanced one with load cell (Fanatec, and high end product). To make it quick: The difference between those are that with a potentiometer based brake the brake you'll apply in game will depend on the travel of you brake pedal. With a load cell it depends on the force you apply on the brake. As real car (mostly) use hydraulic brake system, load cell is the closest you'll have to simulate the real feeling of a real brake pedal. But there's still something that doesn't make it right in every sim game I know: You still have a range of use (0% to 100%) for the brake pedal. A range over witch it's useless to press harder as the game will not register it at all. The game will use the calibration you done on the system for the pedals to determine what is the max amount of pressure to register. But, if we wanted something close to the real thing, there's shouldn't be a max limit at all. IRL the max pressure is only determined by your own force and the mechanical resistance of the brake system (hose, joint, levers, etc). You can push more than 100kg on the brake pedal of your car, it will not break ... street car may have brake assist system that lower the amount of pressure you need, it's not always the case on race car. I thing that it would be great to have a game that rely on the raw data of the load cell of the brake and not on a determined range. Most of load cell pedals allow a sensibility settings. So you can set if you want a pedals that you need to push hard or not for the same output. I would love to see a game were I don't have a max limit on break pressure, so I would only have to set the sensibility of the pedal and give the right dosage on braking. The maximum I need to press will be when I got tire lock up (non ABS car) or based on the car physics (say: this car has a brake system that can apply this max pressure). Max brake pressure will be car dependent as RPM, Vmax, etc .
But then you could only race against people also using this technology, cause otherwise you'd have an advantage over those who don't, who still have to use a system with a max pressure value.
I don't see it as and advantage over other driver. It's like those who have a 900° (or more ) and those who have a wheel limited to 270° or something like that. It's about being able to use the hardware as it could be used and not with artificial limitation inherit from the past. (Like Variable refresh screen against fixed refresh screen.. etc )
Yeah, I get that and it would be great to actually put that advanced technology to full use, but the way I understand it you'd be able to apply more brake pressure with load cell pedals cause you said it should be unlimited. Everyone without loadcell pedals would still have to use a limited version, which would create an uneven competition I'd say.
I still would not be able to brake more than the car can brake If the tires lock.. it's the same whatever are your pedals. And when you drive a car with ABS, you're still dependent of the physical brake system of the car, and the ABS is here to limit the maximum pressure you apply to the brake to avoid tire lock. The difference here is that you're no more limited by a artificial fixed value you have set once for all but by the physics of the car. And the physics is the same for every player.
Nop, they don't need it, they have it.. It's an hardware limitation. Software only follow the hardware... And today we keep this only for legacy. New/better hardware is not correctly used because of this legacy. You're thinking by the wrong side of the problem. For you better hardware should be restraint because it could give player an advantage over player with lower hardware. But, if you start like this you fall in a very very dangerous path : Some players play with game pad, shouldn't we restraint wheel players? What about those who have a 270° wheel? Should we limit all the player that bought a 900° (or more) wheel? Some player have high end rig with very accurate wheel and pedals, shouldn't they have an handicap so player with low end rig can compete? Most players will play with single screen setup, so triple screen shouldn't not be allowed... And virtual reality Headset should be banned because they will have a big advantage! You can do this for every single bit of hardware needed for playing a sim racing game on PC... What about the GPU? High end gpu give you high frame rate with more accurate graphics, it's not an advantage? High frame rate is definitely an advantage because physics and ffb depend on it. The higher it is the more accurate you can be. Etc etc... And at last, maybe you don't have a load cell pedal set so you may not know how it work. You'll not have twice the brake power than other users. As a pressure sensitive sensor the output value is not linear like a potentiometer. It's more a logarithmic output : the more you press the pedal, the harder you'll have to press... Like with your hydraulic brake on your car. Today software is designed to be used with linear hardware, while load cell pedals are not.
The argument of advantage is a moot point as dor there to be a level playing field would require everyone to use exactly the same equipment. A bigger advantage is a triple screen over a single screen. Now that I've got one it's had a massive impact on my lap times. The load cell working in game should probably just add to the realism than make me faster.
I dont think the breaks current physics would support removal of the cap because the whole thing becomes a lot more complex.
Err, that wasn't my question and I never said that I want "better" hardware to be restrained. You seem to feel the need to preemptively defend against a point that hasn't been made and that I wasn't going to make. I understand how those pedals work, don't worry, just like I understand that it would not magically increase the braking power beyond the cars physical boundaries. But what are you actually suggesting? An additional profile option for load cell pedals? I was just thinking about what would be the best way to achieve this and if we don't have it already, at least in parts, cause the brake sensitivity setting distributes brake power linear only if set to 50%. If brake sensitivity is set to 0% brake power is distributed in an exponential way, like this and if it is set to 100% it is distributed in an logarithmic way, like this Did you try altering this and what was the effect like? The point I was aiming for with that question was that those players without load cell pedals have to use a linear 0-100% scaled setting. So instead of introducing an additional profile option it would work if the brake pressure would be adjusted for every individual car, so the 100% mark would be at the actual physical limit of the car, i.e. the lock-up point. That way both load cell and regular users could use the same settings without the need to create separated settings for different hardware.
Yep and it's a bad idea because you artificially add a non linear software output to a non linear hardware. This type of curb is exactly what a load load give, by default, it's all the point of it. This is exactly what I'm talking about: not having a fixed brake range but use the physics of the car. It would be much realistic for load cell pedals. But I don't think it can apply if don't have one. Because when you use a potentiometer, there is a physical limit to the maximum you can press the pedal. It's not like saying: this car = this limit (this would only be a first approximation). To be accurate the limit will depend on the conditions : track grip, tire wear, car setup, etc ... But what appends if the limit is further than the range of the potentiometer ? I're screwed because you can't have an optimal brake. To avoid that maybe it is possible to calculate a dynamic calibration of the pedal, in real time... maybe not. It's over my knowledge here
I wouldn't get to deep in that. I like the request from @le_poilu and I would like to see a proper support for load-cell-pedals in R3E as proper Hardware-Support is always good in a sim. I'm sure that the Dev's from S3S would take care not to give an unfair advantage to users with load-cell-pedals.
Right, I see. Just wasn't sure if it would compliment load cells better than the linear one, but of course what it does is play two log values against each other, so as long as they aren't in perfect sync it's arguably worse I guess. So I guess there is no "cheap", impromptu sollution to this, which is what I was thinking about. My point about the uneven competition was in respect to the current brakes, where we have cars that don't even reach the lock up point, even with brake power up at 100% (car setup menu). That's what made me say that if everybody without load cells wouldn't be able to reach that limit while load cell users would, it would be unfair/uneven. Guess it would take some tweaking on the cars (which is being done anyway) and introduction of a load cell option for controller profiles. Pretty sure they could pull that off. Question is do they have the time. But as these kinda pedals seem to be getting more popular, sure, would be good to add it.
I'd love to have a developper feedback about this, and the feasibility. Maybe @Marko Hartikainen or @Mikael Hermansson could answer
One of the reasons I gave up on AC was because it was obvious that their braking system greatly favoured rigs with load cells. They showed no interest in adopting gain settings for braking pressure (which would have helped spring based systems) putting most non load cell users at a disadvantage. Load cells are more realistic but they are also expensive and based on my experiences with Fanatec the hardware is unreliable. I certainly don't object to drivers using them but I also don't want non load cell users to be at a disadvantage.
There is a setting for the brake pedal in AC, you can set the output gamma And I'm not so sur AC is so good for load cell and bad for other. I know a lot a player that are much faster than me and they don't have load cell pedal.