Unimportant, as I understand it the Steam statistics do not log whether you play SP or MP, but whether you are online connected to the game or not (so MP always are counted, but SP playing offline probably not), and since R3E demands online connection even in SP, those statistics cover both MP plus SP. AC at last could be played with Steam offline, in SP, and with PC I do not know. The majority of customers still prefer SP. That makes the Steam statistics even more worrysome for R3E.
You see it that way, and maybe I even agree, at least I have spend all that money and bought all content, didn't I - that big my problem with it thus cannot be. But that does not matter. The point is that almost everybody I talked with in other forums or in mails about R3E, mentioned it to be his first reason not caring for R3E. Next came the "weired" car handling, and earlier bad experiences with R3E from its founding days: "I tried it, I did not like it, no, I do not think it became better since then, AC /rF2/iR physics are that much better". From AC forums I maybe brought five guys or so to try R3E, at least that is those guys from whom I got any kind of feedback. But several times as many rejected the game for the above mentioned reasons. Unknown the game was not, almost everybody had heard of it. In private mails and other contexts, I maybe collected two or three more people for R3E, but again: maybe two dozen people rejecting to even try it, due to the transaction model and the bad reputation of the game from its bad start years ago. Estimated numbers, I do not count and make lists of these things. Its an uphill battle for S3 and RR, of that I am certain.
Pretty much my experience exactly, though most of my people put the weird handling/ffb as the highest complaint but the other complaints were all there as well. One of the reasons I don't race in R3E more than I do is because none of my friends race with it, I have to go to AC to race with them and I'm not exactly a big fan of AC (which has way more problems than R3E in my opinion, especially in the MP department). This is the last I'll say on the matter as it seems to have turned into a hate-fest against people who are concerned about the future of the sim. I got involved in the discussion with the hopes that we may be able to help address these issues we see or at least bring exposure to them. But instead our concern has turned into "ARRGGHH, WHY YOU HATE MY GAME?!?" If we hated it, we wouldn't be concerned or bother discussing it.
Well what's been promised for the near future, physics overhaul, ADAC 15, DTM 15, WTCC 15, Audi TT Cup, Bentley, Audi R18 I don't talk statistics, my point is RRE is WIP so starting pay for leagues within an unfinished sim is ridiculous, things are changing on a regular basis, physics for one and until all the classes are rearranged, models are decided upon and everyone gets the chance to decide on the classes and cars they prefer to drive, trying to take things seriously is pointless, talk about RRE releasing too soon! Multiplayer is in an Alpha phase which means changes, with changes come bugs (some are having purchase errors now) until RRE/Sector3 say here is our finished product you either buy into the evolution or not (a lot like to wait for a pretty box for their shelf) or of course you can just bitch for the sake of it! What I do think should happen is the Dev stream promised in Sept mentioned is perhaps mentioned a bit louder and arranged asap so maybe, once and for all we may get some sort of timeline to the release of all this numerous content promised and some of this relentless speculation can be put to bed, starting to get on my tits!
If business is such that unfinished things are released and then stay in "Early Access or WIP for several years to come, then there is a problem with business standards. And if projects can only be financed that way, that tells a lesson about the healthiness of underlying financial mechanisms and structures. Nobody would buy a book with half of the pages empty and story still not written, or an unfinished car that - after having gotten it delivered into his garage - cannot be moved in the way the paying customers wants for several years to come. Its crazy. Curse of the uncovered-credit-drunken era. And while I agree on your last paragraph on the September dev stream in general, I think new content is the smallest of concerns. There are 27 or 28 locations with over 50 or even around 60s track variations, there are - 70? cars - content of this kind is really the smallest of my concerns. I will buy new content, yes. But I do not wait for it nor do I need it. Its just a nhice bonus. Maybe with the exception of the Nordschleife. If one looks at the Steam graph for AC, one can see the huge bulge in March - the month they released their Nordschleife. I hope something similiar happens for R3E. But in general, a dozen more cars, three more tracks or not - this is not what will pick up those people rejecting Raceroom over bad memories of the past, or the business model. To these people, such things are not the relevant issue at all.
When the guy who runs the R3E club at RD would prefer to play rFactor 2 then yes I think the problems are more an issue for RD than they are R3E. As someone who ran a club at RD which was spoilt by the unwanted changes brought in by others then this quote from another certainly rings true for me: From what I see of their calendar it looks to me like too many events which was one of the changes that I didn't agree with for the club I ran, if you have a new or small club then in my opinion its far better to concentrate on a couple of events rather than a lot of them split over lots of content that members have to buy to be able to play. RD has a finite budget and they do well with what they have but there was infighting behind the scenes among the various club organisers over the resources used by one club or another and how organisers felt one game was being promoted more than another. RD has a number of clubs running for games but in a few months some of those will be gone too as members move onto something new or the staff at RD decide to focus on another game, its just the nature of an online community. A while back rFactor 2 was struggling to get any attention, netKar Pro went through peaks and troughs of activity, same for Assetto Corsa and so on and so on. There will be other leagues running at RD and there will be other R3E leagues running around the net. So rFactor 2 now has its day in the sun at RD but the online numbers for rFactor 2 online are not any better or even possibly worse than R3E. R3E has had sales recently so spread the word, join another league online, help boost numbers and if numbers rise more will see and hear about it. iRacing is more expensive again yet there are thousands playing regularly. When I look at how far R3E has come in the last 12 months I don't share the pessimism about the future.
Its quality is what sold it to me. By quality "at present", I am not pessimistic. By the other factors that I now repeatedly mentioned, I am seriously concerned, such small player numbers cannot be economically sustainable, me thinks. A products can be good in quality - and still get rejected by customers, for other reasons, or lacking knowledge. Anyhow, it starts to become circular in this thread, so I join Brandon on his leave now. Have fun everybody.
Excellent post, and full of a lot of very interesting ideas that would completely refresh the game and put it in the minds of new players. Between what @Skybird and @Brandon Wright have been saying, I don't have too much to add. I share the same feelings. I've been down this road many times and argued many of the same points. Ultimately, there's too many people who think everything is perfectly fine, that R3Es very low population is fine, and that nothing is keeping away potential new players. I mean, if those new players get turned off by such trivial things as microtransactions, we don't want them here, right? I don't know where R3E is going, and I'm not happy with the direction from where I stand. RaceRoom deserves to be so much better, and it really could be with a handful of smart changes. It's so unfortunate that it's so held down by its reputation, pay model, and general noob unfriendliness when it comes to a new player experience. It's ironic really, considering the game itself is very easy and enjoyable to drive.
This is somewhat confusing - if the whole direction was wrong it couldn't be fixed with a few small changes. Just sayin...
I think its less Sector3 and more Raceroom (the company behind S3 and R3E). It looks all like a management story to me. S3 may even agree - and actually seem to do so - with some of the points made here, but if the producing management sees things different, there is little they can do. Some changes could be done easily and fast, replacing the demo cars, for example, I fail to imagine what could be the big issue there. I assume Raceroom management does not want to change it, thinking they make more income by selling the better cars that I want "getting wasted for free" as bait for new customers in the demo mode. While I certainly am not in possession of all the facts and knowledge, this is the only explanation I could imagine that makes sense. Other things like the shop model, seem to root much deeper in the genes of R3E, S3 staff revealed some months ago, stemming from the time when R3E was still planned by SimBin and was made with a different goal for development on mind. While it may be a complex task, it nevertheless is one that should be given top priority. I am quite certain that they suffer quite some economic damage from it, since it keeps many people away I'm sure. Staff also indicated that the need that even SP players need to be onlopine, is heritage froim SimBin'S vision for the game, and in fact is not that much wanted by S3 today - but it roots deep in the sim's genes. Complex surgery needed. To the demand for seeking more public attention, they already seem to have reacted, with many sales, the DTM virtual league and such, but when i look at forum activities and player numbers online and Steam statistics, this offensive was too weak as too achieve the needed goal. You just need to look at the very slow pace i right this S3's very own forum and the low number of active posters and compare it to Kunos forum, RD forums, PC forum, to see the huge difference. Its no big mystery to realise on which party the hottest bands play. Nothing of what I mention, is meant as an attack on players or against S3 or the sim - I love it, it has pulled me seriously away from AC (and that means something), I am absolutely convinced of its quality from very early on when I discovered it in Spring this year - but the low number of interested people is worrisome. Such low numbers as being indicated by forum numbers and Steam statistics cannot endlessly maintain an ongoing development project that claims to even plan more investments for the future. That's why I am worried. I want the journey to gop on. And as a cool-hearted, self-centered paying customer, I of course also worry about my already made - significant financial investments to be able to play this. That is just a legitimate concern, too. I dont want to wake up next month and learn that Sector3 has gone the way of SimBin. Creator'S freedom and less limits its all nice and well, but at the end of the day bills need to get paid and wages need to be handed out so that staff can buy bread and butter for families at home. Thats what R3E's future is about, and no sentimental dreams: MONEY. And Goose, Game of Thrones is being produced in season packs, each season being a complete project in itself. Thats the way HBO does it, and its the only financially responsible way to do it, considering the high costs. And if one season does not fulfill the finacial needs and audience numbers, this will mean the end of the show and no further seasons will be done, no matter whether the books still hold stories so far not told, or not. You are aware that many examples could be listed where film projects were planned in multiple parts - and after the pilot or first movie were cancelled, yes?! The trilogy "The Golden Compass" serving as just one exmaple. Even serials that were not appreciated by the audience. Too many could be listed here that did not live beyond the pilot or the first third of episodes. Or an even successful serial does not get further seasons produced because despite the success the costs are too high (80's series Spenser on my mind as an example). - Or take Kunos - they said already two years ago that while they plan to support AC until 2018, now saying 2020, they also said that DLCs there only will be done as long and support will only be maintained as long as the financial flux from us to them supports that. You see, business that does not aim at making profit, is no business, but a hobby at best, a folly at worst. In case of the latter leaving behind a heap of debts and unpaid bills.
From what I've read, this is my impression too. Not much they can do about it until they can convince the bosses that something needs to change.
Lets hope Raceroom management is not just wanting to milk the current model to death and then leave the dead corpus behind. Enough of that, today is AC release day - and so I'll take a break from R3E for today and tomorrow. Please everybody forgive me!
Just to correct you, you said " Nobody would buy a book with half of the pages empty and story still not written " Game of Thrones is an unfinished story with the last books still unwritten! Why I made the point! Each book is most definitely not an individual story.
Assetto Corsa's forums are busy because it has a big modding community there and since it was announced for console launch I have friends on the PS4 and XBOX One that also visit the forums in anticipation of the release next year. RD forums is really a ridiculous comparison, its an age old website that covers not only a multitude of PC games but also console games too that also benefitted from the demise of RSC's forums so of course its going to be busy. Project Cars forums is also a multi platform game that has enjoyed a big publishers advertising budget not only online across three formats but also TV adverts for the game and its featured in an add for a custom PC builder in the UK listing the games name as it advertises its gaming PC's. As the topic was about RD's R3E club folding I found this quote from the club organiser a little odd: That was made a little over a month ago, so what happened in a very small period of time? If the club was going from strength to strength why did it close so soon after this statement was made? If there was such a big problem with R3E's business model (and I'm not saying its perfect, just not as flawed as some suggest) why wasn't it a problem just over a month ago? when: If anything recent sales on RaceRoom would surely only have bolstered this club which was reportedly going "from strength to strength".
Really? Could you please show us this "club going strength to strength"? http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/gtr3-friday-spa-friday-25th-september-2015.111258/ Spa...three entries... Bathurst (04-10-15)...three entries Bathurst (30-09-15)... seven entries. The numbers are there... http://www.racedepartment.com/forums/r3e-racing-club-leagues.15/