iRacing is more expensive than the lot of them and has thousands playing, one club folds and the sky is falling in? Right now as of 17:32 GMT RaceRoom has more players racing online than Project Cars. Clubs stop for many reasons, it takes up a large amount of time to organise and run and admins get burnt out, have real life issues that get in the way as do the racers. No matter how much expensive sim gear we put in front of us we are not professional drivers and so real life comes first be it work, home life or whatever and that accounts for a lot of drop outs.
What you say is valid, but it's missing the point. Many sims, even old sims, have thriving clubs regardless of real life issues or the time involved to organize it. R3E does not because not very many people use it, and that's due to a number of circumstances that include, but are not limited to, the pricing model. RD kept hosting the events even after people stopped showing up, but eventually they decided it was no longer worth the effort because they were lucky to get one or two people to show up. They didn't shut it down due to the admin getting burnt out or real life issues getting in their way, they closed it because nobody showed up. Their other clubs do fine, even for older sims, but not R3E. This is a sign of a larger problem that's only going to get worse. It doesn't mean the sky is falling, but I'd argue that there has never been much of a sky to fall with R3E due to the lack of users.
There are a number of other RaceRoom league's running just fine, its just the cyclical nature of online communities and often how those that run the community promote things or other sims. We're not real life racers we're playing games in front of a monitor and so there is very little expense in trying another game as opposed to a real life racing deciding he likes GT racing now instead of open wheel racing and so people will sometimes drift/move to the latest and greatest or whatever happens to be in the spotlight of that community at any given time. Numerous games have featured strongly at RD to the detriment of others games followings and so it will go around and around as each new game comes along or a feature is released that interests the collective. That and the real life issues account for a lot of the drop outs you see. iRacing is expensive yet has a strong following, older sims can sometimes be easier to attract players because people bought them way back when, drifted to another sim but then see's something set up online for it so its easy to install it again and fire up, that and often the lower system requirements for older sims like rFactor or RACE for example. It wasn't so long ago rFactor and rFactor 2 were dying on their feet at RD and I could list other games that were once popular but now are pretty dormant, its just the nature of online communities. One club closing does not mean the sky is falling.
Well hopefully they don't share your pessimism else at the news of the RD club closing they might decide it's not worth continuing and shut up shop
There is no pessimism, only concern. If I was pessimistic I wouldn't bother posting on these forums or being one of the two or three people who actually showed up for the RD events. I am, however, very concerned that several factors are working together to hold the sim back from its potential, and if it continues it could be detrimental to the survival of the R3E and S3S. If I didn't care, I'd just toss R3E in the bin along with PCARS and move on. But when I see that none of my sim-racing junkie friends will touch R3E, that the servers are constantly near empty, that the forums (here and RD) have only a handful of people active, and that the biggest site for hosting sim races of all varities has shuttered the club, it points to a growing problem and as a a fan who cares I feel it's my/our duty to speak up. That's not being pessimistic, it's being proactive in trying to save something you care for.
Snapshots mean nothing, it is the average over longer periods of time that give you the much more valid idea. Statistics of the past 6 months: You see that Raceroom does poor compared to PC and AC. I have no clue how rF2 is doing. When they are on Steam, it will be easier to learn about them. Honestly said, I fear they will beat Raceroom, too. Its undeserved, yes, R3E is better than these numbers seem to imply. But thats the way things are. They fight an uphill battle against the bad reputation R3E has from earlier years, and the business model, which more often than anything else is given as an argument preventing new players from getting into R3E.
Oh, there is a page 1... Sorry, Brandon, I did not want to steal your "show" with those charts. I just missed you already posted them.
There are other league's running, now if they were all coming here saying there was a problem maybe we could believe the sky was really falling, the guy who ran the R3E club at RD says about rFactor 2 "For me personally this is an exciting opportunity to be involved more closely with my sim of choice" and another RD member says "I do not want to pay for RD's premium services because I am not feeling at home anymore because of several changes that have been made that killed R3E club in my opinion" I'd say the issues were a little closer to RD than the sim.
Other sims are doing just fine on RD with healthy race club communities. So I would suggest the issues are very much closer to R3E. As I said in my earlier post, the lack of interest over at RD (the biggest sim racing community out there) is symptomatic of the wider problem with R3E - low player numbers. There are various reasons for this but the Steam figures don't lie. It's a little concerning.
My 2 cents:All people here are right.Devs from S3S need to take a look on why the league of RD failed.But,on the other hand RD has a few issues with leagues lately(ex Assetto Corsa penalty controversies) so that points to the fault being more on the front of RD than on the one of R3E.
This subject has been discussed so many times, but here's my opinion. By the way, i'm not even going into the paymodel, there's just too many threads about it already. You talk about how R3E's numbers are low compared to AC and PC, however they are finished games, yes, both keep releasing cars and tracks and AC gets regular core updates, but their numbers are not going up, you can see PC went from 10k to 1k players in 2 months. My point is, if people aren't interested on those games by now, a lambo huracan or a aston martin dlc isn't going to change their minds. Now, R3E was released on steam back in 2013, but simbin was taking the game on a whole other direction, and because of that lot's of people, myself included, tried and didn't like it. Since sector3 took over the game has changed a lot, and quite a few people went back to playing it. R3E is now averaging around 200 people, i'd say that's good for a SIM with no fuel consumption, no flags, in multiplayer alpha, etc. You have to remember the version is 0.3 something, look how long it took rfactor2 to get where it's at now. For R3E there's nowhere to go but up, you just have to be patient and trust the sector3 guys. I don't usually do this, but since this is a long text, sorry for any mistakes, english is not my native language.
Since this is now a pricing model thread I think one of the keys to the longevity of any of these sims is content and more specifically licensed series. I will open to say that the figures worry me too and it makes sense the more players you have the more funds you should be able to generate. However lets look at the model of the other two shown here. They are both relying on selling a game and then irregular packs which have been somewhat underwhelming. How much additional revenue are all those people playing the game generating for these two games? There is not much for them to buy. Project Cars 2 is already on the horizon, Project cars may not really have a long lifespan. AC does not have enough content and it is a mish mash - is it wasn't for Lambo/Ferrari the cupboard would be as bare as rFactor 2. Parts of the R3E model may have a long term advantage. I think we all agree that there is a lot of work needed for the multiplayer to generate numbers of players however their ability to integrate 'experiences' opens some interesting possibilities. These are stand-alone games that people can buy but it plugs them in to R3E. They can be a game that is released every year like the F1 series however the content is not scrapped when the next game comes out. Having a few experiences that you are releasing every year means you have several games to sell every year. What do the others have in terms of long term income generation? Mods don't make money except in selling the game but that drops off pretty early. Licensing series and marketing these properly could be what makes R3E a real ling term prospect. There are some features missing across the board and some interfaces need improving etc and they say they are working on it - DTM experience is a good game and a strong brand - it should be able to be marketed to a point where it is generating a lot of sales every year. WTCC is something that has a lot of Euro recognition and ADAC Masters opens the door to the GT3 type cars that everyone loves - thats a good starting lineup for yearly games. What is needed now is a relationship with a strong American series leading to an experience (SCCA Trans Am for example). Sector 3 could be releasing and selling 4-6 games a year every year if they make it work - thats a good model into the future and then content within R3E itself is just a bit of cream. So anyway there are different ways of looking at the models - current state of play and potential, and R3E has some potential - the others should be worried about their future revenue as much as Sector 3 should be worried about their current revenue.
The question is, of those 200 people playing R3E, how many are paying customers? How many are messing about with free content and competitions? Just putting it out there because R3E differs from other sims in that you can play for free therefore a good chunk of the user base may be contributing nothing at all to the revenue stream. I can't help feeling that R3E survives on a small hardcore of people, each heavily invested in the product.
Even if rFactor 2 comes on Steam, you will never get accurate data of rFactor 2 players as not all copies are transferred to Steam. AC's issues arent lack of content, for me, it feels like the racing feels a lot lackluster than say R3E or pcars. The AI is still quite awful which there isnt much incentive to race there. They can have the best brands, like Ferrari or Lamborghini which cool to see, but after 1-2 hours, I usually find myself in R3E or pcars. Lack of tracks is still a bit of concern as even with mod tracks, I still find R3E(at least what I have at the moment) and pcars has much larger track selections. Project CARS 2 is still long long way to go. I had seen whats in development, it isnt update Z4 GT3 to M6 GT3 with a handful of new tracks sort of sequel. They are diverging towards a fairly niche direction that almost no developers are currently doing. We wont be seeing the sequel for at least 2 years but I doubt we will even see it in 3 years considering original Project CARS 1 was supposed to be a 1 year quick and dirty development, not 3 and half years of development that brought out the current game. I dont know how long Project CARS 1 support will be going for but considering the left over unfinished licensed content, I think there is still quite a fair bit to go at the moment. The meaty, completely new discipline DLC arent even close to release yet. If we are seeing Indy or NASCAR DLC, then, I guess it might be the end of post release DLC. I dont know how R3E going to shake off the sigma attached to this game. It is a great game but it had been always a difficult game to recommend to people.
There are so much potensial in R3E, and the player numbers really are embarrassedly low when thinking of how good R3E is even in this state!! But obviously we are more than 200 buying players, otherwise S3S would have gone the same road Simbin did shortly after the restructuring. We are over 2700 members of this forum, and you still see people on steam that don't know about this site. As said, most games get a sequel you need to buy every other year or so. R3E is an ongoing evolving game, and could be everlasting if we are lucky. This model suits me really well ,but a loyalty bonus based on owned content would be nice to have after +200€ spent. But what I think they really need is to get more features in place! Mandatory pit stops, fuel, flags, damage model, more garage settings with savable features etc, etc. The servers also needs to get a lot more stable, lagging / warping / invisible cars have been a huge gripe those last months.. And I guess custom liveries are a big thing for some leagues. And not to forget optimization to run better and different hardware supports like triple screen, VR, SLI etc. What goes for AC. I'm not sure I will get the next Dream pack, I'm a big Ferrari fan but still haven't played it for quite some time. Haven't even reinstalled it since I upgraded to windows 10.. . But actually got fooled to pic up some DLC for pCars, love old cars and thought I get some more tracks as well.. . And did I play it?.. Took the Audi 90 for a short spin, a really short spin. (About half a lap) Turned pC off and fired up R3E.. Had a blast in the Audi 90 (as it's supposed to feel ), and forgot all about the rest of the pC DLC I bought.. Stupid, I should have known better..
Jeez, will someone turn the record over, if I hear business model/lacking features/blah, blah, blah, get off the soddin forum and go race, Steam numbers will go up, simple arithmetic! Pretty sure all the whining that goes on here puts plenty off! Large updates on horizon, some (not all) of your grievances will be addressed the game will move forward so please can the threads on here move forward with it? WIP if you don't like it don't buy into it (which I'm sure many haven't for that reason), small Dev team and lots to address, not to mention decent flow of new content. Just look how far this sim has moved forward in the last 12 months, only bodes well for the future and the amount of people that complain about the business model then state they're into the sim for £200+, sounds to me they know exactly what they're doing! Used to come to this forum several times of the day for some lighthearted chat and banter, not sure there is one thread that doesn't worm its way into "Business model" debate and the same few names enjoy fuelling the fire. Fancy there is nothing more to be said about it, some like, some don't, either way it is what it is, move along please!!!!!!!! Oh and by the way, most of the complainers I've not seen once online racing!
I know all that, Soddyn. Thats why I say the sim suffers from its established bad reputation, that is no longer deserved but still is what forms the major public opinion of it out there. I must be realistic - I like what i see in R3E - but the overwhelming majority of people I talked with about R3E, either do not care for it or actively reject R3E. Pewople liking R3E, are a minority. Thats why I say Raceroom management and Sector3 are fighting an uphill battle. Its the fate you often see games suffering that got released too early, too prematurely. You can add all the improvements, repair the stuff you release din a broken format - the damage of crippling first impression nevertheless has been done, and is being remembered for years to come. You inevitably hit the wall in public opinion sooner or later, that wall that has a graffiti on it reading "I tried it back then, i did not like it, its bad, I do not intend to try again". And if those trying at least the free content get greeted with those lousy cars available for free play, a good number of these people gets turned away again, maybe already the second time. And while some people in this forum seem to like the transaction model, I can just repeat that the business model was the prime argument given to me when people heard my recommendation for R3E and answered why they still would not care for it. Microtransaciton, the bad historic reputation - two huge millstones hanging around their neck. The free content cars do not make it any better. I cannot imagine why they do not give it top priority to get rid of thís ballast. I mean I and we all just run our imagination and arugmnets on whether they are in an ykind of critical condition or not, we do not know for sure - we jjst see the mentioned facts, and draw conclusions. These are reaosnable conclousions, I think, but they must not necessarily be right, since we do not know all internal number stuff that they know for sure. But if it is like we assume, then it totally escapes me why they do not make it an urgent procedure to get rid of this heritage that threatens to pull them down then. When you fall into water and are about to drown, you try to get out of your thick clothing first, to be able to swim better. "Emergency measures": Immediately replace the demo cars for more accessible cars from the GT3 and WTCC branch, maybe the touring classic and DTM1992 pack as well. The first impresison with cars driven must be overwhelmingly positive, so make sure you set up the best you have to offer. This is not the right time to reserve the best horses in the stable for payware deals. Kill the microtransaction model, NOW, sort content into packs and leave it to that. People complaining that they bought it differenbtl yin the past, must be let complai8ning - you cannot please all and everybody, it is about getting new customers, not allowing old customers to endlessly wallow in memories. Get the new physics model out and make sure it holds what was promised. The gap in physics is the most important difference to AC, and AC is a heavyweight competitor in this market segment. If you can keep up with the core strength of AC, then you play in the top quality league of the business. Some other things R3E does better than AC, but the most important one is the physics, and here AC still is ahead. This is a strategic issue. Aggressively advertise the changes and make them known, and aggressively approach the media, and public race events. It needs to get pressed, fired, hammered into players' heads that what R3E does now is not what it did 3 years ago, but that it is better. People must be able to see in an easy, accessible, comfortable manner the changes. Pricing must become competitive to the very aggressive pricing of AC. Right now, R3E is too expensive in direct comparison. Every month wasted is a month more new customers are being missed, financial reserves get eaten up, no new income gets generated. Fundamental changes, aggressively approaching the public's awareness and a clear breaking up with the bad heritage from the early starting phase in the simBin era, are needed. Some steps have been made already, for example the green marble gone. Others have been announced, but I wonder about the time priorities attributed to these points. Again: all this is based on the assumption that indeed behind the stage the economical situation/customer numbers indeed are a cause of concern. We assume that, we do not know for certain. But when I see the numbers available to the public, I am worried. A project investing into development that costs money, and licenses, showing player numbers like these and being met with public desinterest like I have seen it since half a year now - that is no good sight. Does anyone know: is the parent company behind Sector3 engaged in other software studios and projects as well? I mean do they have other sources of income so that they can crossfinance R3E for some time to come? And I do not mean aging old games like Race07 etc. (who buys that anymore now with R3E and Ac and PC out...), but a completely different second business leg. That old games still are being played by a few guys, means little, since it does not generate income. What is still being sold is what counts. Lets face it, its about money. Always.
My emphasis was never on the business model, but several factors that I've been watching over the last year, and yes the business model is one of them. I personally don't have much problem with the business model, I think it could be tweaked a little to make it more effective/affordable, but I think in a lot of ways it's a pretty good model. I'd rather fork over money for new packs and experiences than have to buy a whole new version of the game every year or two, and I think highly of S3S so I'm happy to support them with my money. Yes, the sim has moved forward a lot in the last 12 months and my hat's off to the team for all they've done and for the upcoming improvements that sound very promising. But has that resulted in higher adoption rates or more people racing online? Not that I've seen, and that's an area of concern for me. I expect the same will be true for the upcoming improvements, those of us who are already onboard will love them and play more than ever, but I somehow doubt many new players will be attracted. That concerns me. There are many, many threads that contain no mention of the business model. This is still the friendliest and most productive of all sim racing forums, but while there may be 2,000+ members it seems that only a handful are regularly active, and that's concerning. Nobody is saying the sky is falling or that R3E is dead, but some of us are noticing a trend that has us concerned about the long-term future, and it's not just because one club closed. Plenty of people race regularly on RD, despite the requirement for premium membership, yet virtually none of them would show up for R3E or even participate in any R3E conversations. While RD has its problems, I think in this case most of the problems aren't of their doing. Oh, and by the way, I was one of only a few people that bothered to show up for the last RD R3E race.