AI gone mad with last update?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PolarClaw, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. PolarClaw

    PolarClaw Member

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    I'm wondering what happened, that the AI is going mad. Since the new update they are overly aggressive e.g. in Hockenheim they are more driving like bumper cars. In turn 1 and in tight turns they are crashing into each other or braking way to late and don't get the turns.
    Also on Nordschleife often they can't go through the Karussel and are braking to late for some tight turns and don't get it. Also they are crashing into each other way to much.
     
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  2. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Hi @PolarClaw, can you say which car classes in particular that you are seeing this on?
     
  3. PolarClaw

    PolarClaw Member

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    I used the Porsche 911 GT3 CUP class.
     
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  4. Olaf Hülse

    Olaf Hülse Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Might not be since the last update, according to this youtuber here (speaks German, but you get the idea)
    In this race he sums up the season and ai behavior (adaptive ai) at about 19:40

    And this is the race before that where he got divebombed and alomost turned around:

    He talks about switching to other racing sims as he is of the opinion that the ai is spoiling the fun about the game. He claims that the Ai is sometimes overaggressive and sometimes faster in R1 but way slower in R2.
    Oh, and give this mate a chance and watch his vids, he's pretty good :)
    His championship settings:
     
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  5. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    It's been a busy week, so I'm a little late to this particular party.
    Also, I don't speak a word of German, so the youtuber in question may have already covered this in his commentary. If so, my apologies in advance.

    Having said that though.....
    Looking at the above videos, he's getting murdered in the first two, and breezes through the field in the last one.
    All of which leads me to believe that he simply hasn't given the AAI enough time to adapt.
    Imagine if I asked you to adapt to my pace. You'd need a few attempts to not only judge what my pace actually was, but also what you needed to do in order to match it.
    Besides that, if you simply run against the AAI without trying to manipulate it, it'll take longer. If the AAI is too fast in R1, it'll drop the pace in R2. But now the player is being held up by the AI instead, making his lap-times vary wildly.
    (IIRC, there's a 3 second difference between worst and best laptime in the above videos)
    On top of that, he's not exactly helping himself in these races.
    He makes no attempt to cover the inside line when he has opponents right on his tail.
    On more than one occasion he's turning into the AI because he's unaware thaat they're alongside.
    He knows the AI is slower going into the hairpin, yet makes no attempt to alter neither his line nor his braking-point to adapt to this fact. He is, in short, driving like so many others I have seen; running the race like it's a hot-lap and then expecting the AI to get out of his way.
    Which may work in other sims, but it ain't going to cut it in Raceroom.

    Now, before we go any further, let me be absolutely clear: I am not claiming the R3E AI is perfect.
    At present there are several issues with it; Hairpins, chicanes, lack of front-corner awareness, and a tendency to make overtaking attempts that are at times a little...*ahem*...optimistic. :D
    All of which are AFAIK being worked on, and IMO the aggression is what makes it fun to race against.

    So I tried the above combo for myself.
    Audi TTs at Hockenheim GP, 13 minutes plus 1 lap against Adaptive AI. Even better, I'm at roughly the same pace as the above youtuber. He might be a little faster, but certainly not by much.
    Result?
    No ramming neither by me nor the AI. No roll-overs on sausage-kerbs.
    There is a grand total of 3 contacts throughout the race; 2 which I'd attribute to the AI and 1 which is 50/50.
    None of which affected the race in any major way.
    Unfortunately, it's been so long since I last did a video, I recorded in the wrong format. :rolleyes:
    I could've converted it, and then done a properly edited video, but I honestly couldn't be arsed.
    So this is just raw footage without any fancy stuff in it. Should prove the point nonetheless.



    Never, ever tell me that the R3E AI can't be raced.
    It simply isn't true.
     
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  6. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    @CheerfullyInsane

    I find the AI to be mostly good. I can't really get the hang of the AI primer tool so I train them by qualifying last, letting the pack get out of the way, run 8-10 laps, restart and repeat a few times. Seems to be effective for me. Would you agree this works?? Not sure why they can be set to adapt from practice and qualy sessions, or even free practice.... Would speed the job up no end.
     
  7. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that'll work. Much the same technique I used before the Tool made its entrance.
    You can shorten it a fair bit though, 8-10 laps is overkill.
    All you need is the average of the fastest laps of the AI cars, meaning as soon as they've spread out a bit they'll start hitting their marks. Four or five laps should be more than sufficient.
     
  8. Olaf Hülse

    Olaf Hülse Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Thanks for a second opinion to the races I linked :)
    You've mentioned some points which are clearly correct and obvious!
    The AAI is, in my opinion, trained enough as he raced in Hockenheim at the start of the season in the same format. A casual player shouldn't need Three hours of Ai Training before doing his first race in the championship if he wants not to be lapped, should he? So I think that your analysis is quite correct: The Ai decides their next strengh mainly on the race before. He chose the 'Random Starting Position'. This resulted in various grid positions with different pace (You need to pass more/less cars). So the Ai reacted to that and set a lower strengh. It is mainly his fault (even if not intended :) )
    The Adaptive AI in R3E is good, but has some 'bad' driving behavior like divebombing you sometimes. For the casual consumer it might be a bit frustrating, but you'll get used to it.
    I'll contact him in German and tell him our main points. He said in the end of his video, that he even thought of switching to other sims for his next races in his fantasy career mode :eek:. Hope I can stop him;)
    Greetings
     
  9. Flintenwilly

    Flintenwilly Well-Known Member

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    Since the AI is quite a bit faster in Quali, i train them by fighting them (train as you fight). When i do "Quali-last-thing", i have good races around the 10th place but i have to fight like i drive hotlap, but in quali they are too fast for my pace.
    When i train them like i drive normal race, i only make sure that i drive safe, no extrem risk. In the end i have intense fights around podium and can in the same time max out the limits like in quali for a few laps to close gaps.

    And something else i always drive first (with new car class) on Nurburgring. Im not the fastest on this track and the layout is very neutral (has everything in it), so that you can learn how the new car behaves in different situations. So its setting a good baseline for the AI to other tracks.
     
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  10. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    No, he shouldn't. Then again, it took me all of 25 minutes to set up the AI for that particular combo. :)
    Granted, I'll be the first to admit that the whole AAI process, and how it actually works is a little less well-documented than I'd like.
    And personally, I still think it shouldn't adapt downwards, which would save us all kinds of problems.
    But that's just me.

    That is a big no-no, especially when racing against the AAI.
    You always run qualifying. This actually goes for any sim, but it's very important in R3E.
    If you choose random starting position, you're also mixing up the AIs position, which means they'll have to go much longer before they sort themselves out. End result is that you're likely to have AI entries that are slower than they should be, which means the AAI will jump to a higher level than necessary for the next race.
    Do this repeatedly, and you can seriously skew the results for a particular class.

    Well, that won't do. :eek:
    He'd be missing out on some of the best SP racing that is currently available. :)
     
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  11. MattStone

    MattStone Well-Known Member

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    For me the adaptive ai is one the best things about the game; especially if you race single player only.

    Yeah it takes a little while to set up a new class of cars but after running a few tracks it starts to predict the next track pretty close. It's just that first track where I think it starts at 80 (it should start at 100 then decide which way to move)

    I don't use the primer tool; I'm too much of a tool to figure out how to use it. Instead I just set up two sessions with two races each of 4-5 laps; I do a quick quali for each race. After those 4x 5 lap races it's close enough to stat running a championship

    It takes a little bit of patience but the results are well worth it.

    I've never played a single player racing game where you can set and forget an ai strength and it's equal for all tracks.
    At least in R3E it adjusts itself for each track and to your personal skill growth.
    It also means you are just never too sure exactly how competitive you will be for each race....I find that exciting when running a chapionship game
     
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  12. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Thats something i like as well but youll still get that if you run the championship at a set ai level and then you dont even need to train them :D
     
  13. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    The problem I have with fixed AI is I am much better at some tracks than others. Adaptive is a bit of a faff until you've done plenty of laps at the tracks you need to run but works much better for me.
     
  14. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that can be a bit of a problem sometimes but im too lazy to train/manipulate the aai given that i almost never race the ai anyways :D
     
  15. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    To be honest I don't actively train them, I just make sure to do short races rather than just lapping in free practice. Start at the back of the grid and let them go. That way I set clear laptimes and the training is done as a by product of just driving. The AAI system is pretty good in that it ignores really bad laps where you might have had a spin or off track....
     
  16. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Sounds manageable but knowing me i probably still wont do that :D
     
  17. doclucio

    doclucio Active Member

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    hi man which is your hud?!?
     
  18. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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  19. Nico Kunze

    Nico Kunze Well-Known Member

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    Out of interest i gave the tt cup a go as well and wasnt too happy tbh :D
    Tried a practice session at 108 strength at first, was 2.5 sec quicker so just went with 120 strength for quali and race. Qualified last (out of 20) but since there seems to be quite a pace difference between quali and race with the ai i didnt bother about that too much and indeed after 6 minutes into the race i was up to p11. Thats when the incidents started. The 4 major ones are in the short video and then there were a few more little touches than id ideally want as well but thats just regarding quantity not quality
     
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  20. CheerfullyInsane

    CheerfullyInsane Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's the front-corner awareness rearing its ugly head.
    It's annoying, and AFAIK it's being worked on.
    But it's also a much bigger problem when you run too high an AI level. :D
    If you're 2.5 seconds faster than 108, I'm guessing you're running mid/high 1:46s?
    If so, you should be running somewhere around 114-115.

    As for the qualy vs. race pace, I honestly haven't noticed it. Doesn't mean it isn't true, just means that I haven't been looking for it.
    What I suspect is happening is that the AI tend to be a little timid when running in traffic. Usually takes 3-4 laps before they hit their true pace (which coincides nicely with the 6 minute mark).
    It's probably a little worse with Cup cars, since it's harder to get clean air to run in when everybody is running the exact same car.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying the existence of AI problems.
    I'm merely pointing out that the problems are exacerbated when running against the 'wrong' AI level.