Opinions wanted about RRE physics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jbfan, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. fufsgfen

    fufsgfen Active Member

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    I think that if people start talking about which sim is most realistic, then it is time to turn FFB off and start doing some controlled tests, like braking, accelerating, skidpan, pushing car out of control with controlled and repeatable way.

    Car setups, resulting alignment and changes in roll centers, camber etc. are then something that needs analyzing.

    FFB has nothing to do with how realistic car drive, it has to do how nice game feels for personal liking and that is where most people commenting some sim being most realistic have made a mistake.

    More mistakes comes from usually having zero experience from racing on circuit with comparable level cars and so many other things, that there really is no point in boasting any sim as most realistic, realism is good, there has to be enough of it, but it's totally meaningless for most players, no matter how much they run after realism, because if we analyze what those players really are after is nice feeling.

    But it has been that way for more than 20 years, surely I have been running after realism a lot too, but it really is not a thing, there are more important things that will make that feeling what realism seekers are after.

    iRacing has really great racing system, it really focuses on bringing feeling of racing and that it does well and as humans are so easily lead by their feelings and emotions, that is why they are making millions, they know where to focus to offer those experiences instead of spending 10 years to build numerical accuracy.

    To really understanding that is to create a wining product, as sales do matter.

    Enthusiasm/passion can be actually bad thing, even it is great source of feedback and really valuable strength, it can mislead the focus, it can make one think less clearly about what actually matters, that is very common.
     
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  2. GooseCreature

    GooseCreature Well-Known Member

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    Stop peeing around with GT3's then! ;)
     
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  3. Turtle Power

    Turtle Power Well-Known Member

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    You made a very good point about FFB vs Physics vs Realism. Very true and sometimes i forget and lose myself in the constant loop. For me personally the most important thing is how the car feels through my wheel. Don't care if the physics are not accurate. I dont expect it to be. Surely i dont want Forza in Raceroom. Forza is different beast and it serves different purpose.
     
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  4. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    I have definitely observed that the closer we edge to making our cars behave in the correct way, the more our users enjoy themselves and the more often they comment on how nice they feel. There's a definite correlation and that's validation enough for me to keep pushing in the direction we're going!
     
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  5. ChatCureuil

    ChatCureuil Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I just drove the Porsche 934 on Slovakia Ring and this kind of car reminds me why I started sim-racing! Intense driving, lot of feedback from the car, understeer, oversteer, brakes locking, tire overheating... The car lives, I feel it and that's pure fun! I couldn't do anything else than playing until I'm totally exhausted. :D
     
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  6. Lachaussette

    Lachaussette Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you've been practicing for this evening :D
     
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  7. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Well-Known Member

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    Not getting into fight of what's more realistic, as I deeply believe each of the platform has some strenghts and weaknesses, but you do know Max Verstappen participates in rF2 events, right? I've heard multiple times that iRacing strenght is accurate, laser scanned tracks. Well, those are coming to rF2 too, as does competition system. Will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.
     
  8. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Well-Known Member

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    iRacing also does not simulate flat spots, and I uninstalled it as soon as I realized that. Managing your braking is important part of racing.
     
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  9. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    *THE most important thing to master in order to be quick
     
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  10. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Whaaaat? You speak as if slidey sideways and gas, gas, loud noises don't count!?!?
     
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  11. rad

    rad Well-Known Member

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    It's true, but expect some backlash after you'll release update for Group A cars anyway :D For some reason they're one of most popular cars in RaceRoom. Well, I kinda understand why people like them, but they certainly aren't realistic.

    It was the same with Group 5 mostly if I remember correctly.

    But since you're making sure they're perfect before release, we will never see this update anyway :D
     
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  12. fufsgfen

    fufsgfen Active Member

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    Of course there is a connection, but eventually you will hit diminishing returns phase, realism does matter, but only up to a point.

    That feeling is a thing though, many discussions about realism don't quote any numbers, focus on feeling and you know as well as I know that while improvements in physics can improve feeling, quite often reports of improved feeling could be happening even with less realism based changes.

    It is good direction though where you are going, but physics alone are just physics, like we can observe from case rF2 and how close of total failure it was, despite having most complex tire calculations of any sim, good feeling, good experience needs to have more elements than utmost perfect realism, that feeling needs to be achieved and Raceroom does pretty good job on that.

    Dirt rally for example is not very realistic, but huge amount of people do enjoy it, illusions, feelings, it pulls all those quite well. Of course there is this line between niche and masses, latter is so much easier just have something shiny on screen :D
     
  13. Jetsun

    Jetsun Active Member

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    Coming from pcars2/PS4, I'm really impressed by R3E, lov the different handlings n sounds of cars, quite stuck on it, that was a real surprise for me as I did not hear much about this sim, noice :)
    Got rf2 n and dlcs on sale lately, n I must say from the little I tried that it does not have the same effect on me for now.
    Oh n also got dirt rally 2, I will need a lot of practice to really enjoy but I suspect a great sim here too.
     
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  14. Jorgen Wahlby

    Jorgen Wahlby Well-Known Member

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    Yeah he sometimes can be a little annoying :rolleyes: but there is no one that I know of, that is at his level of IRL racing that interacts as much as he does with his fans. I love what he does for all racing fans in general and AMR fans in particular, with all his videos and insights of the beautiful & lovely Aston Martin. The sim racing bit is a tad different :D

     
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  15. benoityip

    benoityip Member

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    After racing raceroom for years, Today I start to compare iRacing myself, using MX-5 on Tsukuba.

    iRacing is not bad, a lot better than ACC.

    The most noticable difference is tyre feeling in iRacing. I can keep the car power out of the corner with tiny little drifting. In raceroom, it is more easier to lose control.

    There are certain elements that raceroom can borrow in the tyre model to make the game better.

    Both games are good, but not ACC

    I also compare GT2 Caliddac, both games are very very good. Both cars handle very similar. I have set the brake bias to 53% (front heavy) to test little drifting (not big drift)

    In raceroom, the grip loses more suddenly and more difficult to save, whereas in iRacing, the grip loses more gradually and more easy to save. Hence, iRacing can do little drifting more easily

    FFB are good in both games, informative enough for me
     
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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  16. Not Lifting Off

    Not Lifting Off Well-Known Member

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    Doing these things with FFB turned off may make you think you are getting purist results but without FFB how do you feel and understand what the game is trying to say?
    Its a game, without FFB how does the end user do this?
    Are they really making a mistake? In a gaming context FFB IN A GAME HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HOW A CAR DRIVES, take away the reality, 0.01% of us have ever driven a car as close to the edge as required to fully appreciate the way the physics in a game are (supposedly) represented, the game\name is irrelevant if what they are trying to reproduce is not what the user is feeling, where FFB is everything, to quote myself (and i didnt realise from this thread :))
    FFB is king!
    Without good FFB in a game the best physics in the world are shit, no two ways about it! Alex can spend the next 12 months perfecting the best physics any game anywhere could ever wish for, but, not even a big but, but, if the game or your controller isnt set up to represent and reproduce them physics settings then all is wasted, the greatest physics ever, wasted on an end user or game or system that cannot reproduce to the required level!

    Sim racing physics, the best isnt a utubers opinion or racing review or anything other than how you and your system feel at that moment in time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  17. higsy

    higsy Well-Known Member

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    I was in Sebring this year and saw him there , it was during the wec autograph session ... I knew him cause my son has showed me his videos and we have a good laugh together... we look at each other now and yell this is Nikki thim and have a good laugh.
    Anyway it was 95 deg out so I said to the wife let's get outta here, way too hot. As we were walking back to the trailer we walked by the AM garage and there was Nikki at the autograph table... my kid loves him so I walked up to get a signed pic... well he's talking to his co driver and doesn't even look up. So me being me polite waited. Well this went on for about 2 minutes and he finally signs it without looking up , saying anything or stopping talking. It was awkward to say the least.. I've been to lots of these things and drivers are totally engaging. Even Doctor Dreamy was great to talk to... anyway Nikki , Nikki. Oh Nikki should have stayed in bed that day. Lol
     
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  18. Turtle Power

    Turtle Power Well-Known Member

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    Very good point. I am pretty sure Sector 3 is aware of all that but the question is how hard is to implement something that other simulators do best?
     
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  19. Foofer37

    Foofer37 Member

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    If Raceroom FFB/Physics change, that will mean yet another sim bites the dust. To me, this is the only sim that really does it right. Leave it alone.
    And if you're paying attention at all, you'll notice that it's suddenly getting busy around here. That's because ACC, the only recent contender is a major fail. Long live R3E!
     
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  20. Turtle Power

    Turtle Power Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, sometimes they just get so occupied and stressed out with things.
    I have nothing against Nikki, full respect for what he does.....BUT.........if he could mute his voice on youtube, I would watch all his videos.