Faimain said "Especially as it was so frickin good (once upon a time ) Clearly remember that racing them (mostly DTM) was almost the same as driving against my collegues at VRTM league !" I remember the same when I bought the game in 2016, then it was ruined. A shame.
....this is the whole point! If you know how it ends; why do you keep playing out the same actions? If you hit you thumb with a hammer you know it hurts, you learnt that so you do everything you can not to do it again.. right? If you see an alien (faster car) chasing you down in the mirror expect he'll pull a late braking manoeuvre; expect that if you cross late into his lane to defend and brake early you risk him rear ending you; choose your defensive racing line early; expect that if you are off line defending he may try to pass you on the racing line so give extra room; be ready for a quick counter steer if you get hit. Know that you are not racing slot cars and that drivers will take advantage of your weaknesses, know that sometimes it's faster to concede a place to a faster car, know that sometimes conceding that place will finish you higher placed in the race because you don't crash out or go off the track. After every incident don't ask yourself how could that AI be programmed better to avoid the incident BUT ask yourself what could have I done to avoid the incident...at the very least your own personal actions are something you can control.
@MattStone If I see an alien in the mirror I expect that they treats me with respect. Not crashing into me for no reason. I don't know why you defend this AI misbehaviour in every post here. There are 5 vids posted where the AI did something wrong but no, there's always the player to blame according to you.
IMO, the change to a certain over-aggressiveness or as Christian said DTM AI "takes too much liberty" has come with one of the recent patches....
I concede that the AI in vid 2 & 3 is a bit too aggressive but I don't want the ai dumbed down at the expense of their amazing performance across the rest of the game. I forgive the odd mistake for the experience they give me else where Regarding the player is always to blame. Well this AI behaviour is a little predictable so therefore avoidable; by recognising the AI (like humans) don't always get it right you gotta allow for that when driving, the player didn't so he has to take some of the responsibility. Look It's simple mathematics THIS Plus EQUALS White knuckle,edge of your seat unpredictable racing that's a hell of a lot of fun. Some may scoff at the unpredictable but that makes it very re-playable because with R3E AI you just cant hog the inside line or the driving line and expect the AI to line up behind you, so...... On the other hand... THIS PLUS EQUALS PC Cars (which I'm sure stands for Politically Correct Cars); predictable, un-challenging racing that is no fun. I chuckled whilst trying out AC the other day..in the middle of a race in 4th position I decided on the main straight to slow right down and adjust my seating position. I looked in the mirror and I had 10 cars all lined up behind me...that was enough for me to write their AI off as a joke. If the people programming the AI listened to and changed the AI to the wishes of all those who come in this forum complaining about the AI we would have the most boring AI ever. And to be honest a lot of people in these forums have just given up trying to help those who complain because the people complaining will never ever consider the possibility that just maybe these incidents can be avoided by just following the 10 simple rules I posted and the other advice others have given you. It's never my fault; it's the AI's so fix it attitude starts to wear thin. So why do I keep defending the AI? All I'm trying to do is help you guys get the same exhilarating experience I have when racing the AI.
Ablaze said "@MattStone If I see an alien in the mirror I expect that they treats me with respect. Not crashing into me for no reason. I don't know why you defend this AI misbehaviour in every post here. There are 5 vids posted where the AI did something wrong but no, there's always the player to blame according to you." It is difficult to understand how they always blame the driving style when it is clear in the 5 videos (I added 19 at the time and also several youtubers say the same) where clearly it is seen as the AI is very, very violent and aggressive without meaning Another thing I do not understand is how beta testers do not see the problem.
and you should ask yourself that question...could the answer be that they understand the 10 principles I listed above and hence don't have a problem!
I take it you haven't raced against many aliens then. Most of the very fast guys I've raced with have very little respect for lesser skilled racers, and will gently (or not-so-gently) nudge you out of the way if they feel you're slowing them down. There are of course exceptions, but I'd still much rather race in a lower split than have to deal with aliens and their egos.
If I would start like the topic starter and post videos on examples where the AI behaves very good, brilliant at times, absolutely reaosnable and competitive, the ratio between videos illustrating "evil AI" and videos showing "good AI" would be such that it tells its own tale and the issue would appear to be pretty much pointless. There will always be exceptions from rules. Declaring the exception itself the rule - that is where the mess starts. Its not the first time such examples wer posted, and as in the cases before, I once again cannot agree with the author on the claim that they all show the aI fialing. Of the five examples given this time, one is an AI fail, one or two are driver's faults, the others being incidents that just happen, no matter whether in MP or SPvsAI. To me its making elephants out of mosquitos, sorry. If this stuff happens so much more often to others than to me, my conclusion is that player's driving obviously has something to do with it. Obviously others do things that I manage to not do. Obviously my assessment of situations that have the potential to end in a mess is different from that of others assessing the same situaiton and thinking thy can take the risk - and so the find the outcome the have asked for. Sorry, I'm getting really tired of this kind of debate. It distorts the relaiton between the number of bad AI incidents andf the number of good AI exmaples, and puts way too much emphasis on the exceptions form the rule. And the rule is, as I can perceive it in GT1,2,3, GTR3, WTCC2018, DTM 92, Classic, DTM 2016, AUDIs, that the AI imo works superb, predictable, reliable, and competitive.
...ok maybe if you guys see what I'm saying you'll understand what I'm saying I set up a race at Zolder with the DTM2016 to try and replicate the same scenario as depicted in the infamous Zolder videos 1 and 2 were you are all proclaiming it's 100% the AI fault and there is nothing you can do about. After a few restarts to create the first lap chaos that always happens in the game (and RL) I was able to get the AI to do exactly what happened in Arcson's video's. Yes the first time they took me out too. Now I could have easily jumped on these forums, linked a video and bashed the AI and wait for Nano and the rest to join in with the chorus and who's support obviously means I'm 100% right because ...hey someone else is validating my argument so therefor anybody who says anything else is wrong and just shut my mind to the help people may offer me. BUT instead I looked at the replay of the 2 incidents from the seat of the car bearing down on me and I could see the line the AI was attempting to take and yup I agree the devs need to look at that and it's a point we've all agreed to. Tho even knowing that I still filed the AI's behaviour in the back of my mind plus the the lessons learned by watching Arcson's vids and just changed my behaviour in that corner if I had AI behind or alongside of me so I could still enjoy the game. I just ran 2x 45 minute races that included 4-5 close encounters at this infamous chicane and even tho I had some fender rubbing going on I never crashed out. I lost a place a couple of times but I got that place back going through the next chicane So here is a video of one of my incidents to show you how I take responsibility for my actions and take into account 6 points that I made earlier so that I can enjoy this white knuckle racing. Expect the inside lunge Expect they will stick to their racing line SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS CRITICAL Give them plenty of room Expect a risky late braking passing manoeuvre Learn where they are particularly dumb and allow for their misgivings and whilst watching this watch the mirror! Notice how I was about to try and dive on the inside of the car in front of me? You can see me turn in but then pull out a fraction of a second later knowing what was happening behind me Truth is I quite enjoyed dicing at this corner with the AI. I love the constant risk vrs reward decisions I had to make and that creates excitement and tension whilst racing which is exhilarating.
Do you drive much online preferably in demanding Leagues and such, Matt ? Don't get me wrong, this discussion isn't about pro or con AI or even "defending" them for me...I love(d) the RRE AI.... It is not my understanding to get adapted to the AI (which is no problem if you prefer AI racing in SP mode, done it myself a lot - you even can learn something - "to stay out of trouble" for example ) - it is the AI's job to get adapted to my pace and driving style, which is essential when racing a real (tough)opponent (in Multiplay as in real Motorsport ) trying to find the right spot for a successfull attack by studying his soft spots. Anything else would contradict the term "Adaptive AI" S3 is promoting, don't you think ? I just want the guys (S3) have a look at it and if required, to adjust what is meant to be adjusted .....
To be fair, its not just the ai drivers I was speaking to your sister the other day and she said....................... Edit - Sorry, i couldnt resist, been dying to say it since the thread started but the grown up in me wouldnt allow it. Alcohols a funny thing
Yes I did a few years back, I spent 1000's of hours playing iRacing competing in division 1 and 2 splits. I primarily drove oval in the trucks, on the road I drove GT's, the V8's and I even won a season in the Skip Barber. In the end the growth and demand of my company and family priorities just meant I no longer had the time to dedicated to a specific time to race in leagues at a set time let alone get the uninterrupted time needed to complete the race. Ever since then I've looked very very hard for a racing game to fill that void; a games who's AI will give me that same adrenaline rush, the unpredictability and the seat of your pants racing that you get when racing multiplayer. Hence why I have so many racing games in my collection...shame on you R3E publishers for your poor marketing cause it took me a long time to find you LOL I may be misunderstanding your comment Fairman so feel free to correct me if I have: I think you are saying that the AI's job (as is real person job in multiplayer) is to adapt to your driving style. Yes I do agree with that but...(Note that from here on I'm when I'm referring to the opponent take that as synonymous as referring to AI and RL opponents.) When attacking or defending a position your success is based on the risk vs reward decisions you make every fraction of a second. And there are many things you must consider Will my vehicle be able to physically do what I demand it to do? knowing the limitations of your car Do I honestly have the skills to do what I want to do? meaning do I have enough skill to control the control behaviour of the car during this moment of chaos regardless of the cars ability to do it? What is my opponents predicted path? how is he likely to attack or defend? What is the skill level of my opponent? can he pull off the manoeuvre; does he have the skills to react to my manoeuvre on him? Will my opponents vehicle have the physical capability to react to my manoeuvre. eg if change lanes to block my opponent does his vehicle have the stopping power and traction to prevent him from rear ending me? Opponents will be making decisions based on the above as well; So everyone is adapting to every one constantly making sure they "Stay out of trouble" as you put it. Yes we want the AI to adapt to our manoeuvres but we also have a responsibility to adapt to them just like in RL or multiplayer racing. When neither the attacker and defender are willing to adapt; that's when it ends in tears. And when racing against AI we have to be realistic and recognise the limitations of AI so that we can "stay out of trouble" by giving a little more when the AI is not smart enough to cope with our taking. Now this brings us to the second statement you made.. ...for starters your expectation of Adaptive AI is not what S3 are promoting. They promote that Adaptive AI simply means that they measure your speed and "adapt' the strength of the AI accordingly; nothing more nothing less. And every gamer knows that when you adjust the AI strength that is just a simple "how fast they go" setting. I feel that your expectation of Adaptive AI is not realistic. We also have to be realistic as to what AI actually means in a racing sim that is expected to played on an affordable technology and a games who's development process can be delivered at an affordable price to the consumer To be totally honest the word AI is so broad in it's meaning and the breadth of expectation of what that means to the consumer is also so wide. I thought the AI in Super Mario Kart back in the early 90's was great but how would they stack to the expectations of AI today and how will todays best AI stack up to the expectations of what AI means in 10 years into the future! The true intelligence level of AI in anything (game or consumer product) is solely determined by the limits caused by technology and development cost. I think it was Nico who I recently saw in pre-race interviewed talking about the simulators they used in F1. He commented that even with the millions of dollars they spend on their simulators the AI still was faster through the mid to high speed corners (my main grip with R3E). His explanation was that RL drivers have to cope with constant grip vs car balance vs pure feel of what is coming through their seats and physical and visual cues to know how fast they can go through a corner. The AI don't have to do this because it already know exactly where that grip level is and how the car balance is and it knows with 100% certainty their ability to drive to that limit. Even with all the money these F1 teams have and they still can't simulate a real driver through these corners. So I'm no longer critical of R3E's AI through those corners; I've set realistic expectations and accept that I'll make that time back up in the hairpins where the AI is generally slower the RL players I 100% agree; especially with things like the optional paths they have programmed through places like the chicane at zolder but in the mean time I'll just follow my 10 rules of racing so I can enjoy this game
You've been given reasonable answers several times and without exemption you chose to ignore them. https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/impact-of-vehicles.10963/#post-153581 This fact, combined with your constant unfounded accusations and your hijacking of every single thread that's even remotely about AI, kills every bit of motivation to talk to you any further, and I don't understand why you don't understand that. Everyone is welcome to report issues and discuss constructively, but if all you wanna do is vent without listening, then you shouldn't be surprised about people starting to ignore you. There are some youtubers showing clips of the AI doing stupid things or being too aggressive, ok. But you also have videos up there showing clean and competitive racing by, with and against the AI, for hours on end. I recommend watching any of Georg's AI videos, of which there's dozens by now: https://www.youtube.com/user/6e66o/videos Not only will you be able to see some fine AI racing, maybe you'll even be able to learn a thing or two..
Gofer Maybe you should learn to listen to the constructive observations we make, we always seek to improve the game. How many videos do you need to see all the problems that the AI has? The game is based without an AI aggression slider, that is a fact and an error, the player has no option. Do you paid for the game ?. Did you work to incorporate an AI aggression slider? Do you saw the errors of the AI and worked on it? Do you always blame the management style or the videos are old, here are new videos, new players but you keep insisting that there are no problems? If you're betatester you should see reality. You should treat with greater respect those who buy the game and the content, we are the ones who invest and we need solutions.
You ask for respect but can't be arsed to write my name right? Grow up, pal, you're the only one here being disrespectful time and again. And because you obviously still refuse to listen to what people say, I'll stop wasting my time and leave you to whatever sad little show this is you're trying to pull once and for all.
@Christian Göpfert What I loved about your input into this thread Christian is that you are able to cast a discerning eye over the 5 videos and make an unbiased assessment of each case. It would be so easy for you to just say "here we go again" when you see a thread like this and totally ignore it but you took the time to review each video without bias. Thank you. BTW You taught me something..I always thought that incidents like those in the vids of the Zolder chicane were just a result of the; dare I say it; aggression level of the AI and with my ignorant view I would staunchly defend the AI because I don't want the "aggression level" turned down as 99% of the time it's perfect. What you taught me was; and correct me if I'm wrong; In a simplistic view, AI have programmed paths they can switch to, I'd imagine there is the primary racing line path and then alternate paths should the primary racing line path be occupied by another car. In the Zolder chicane vids it looks like the AI are programmed an alternate path that "gives them too much liberty" hence why they storm through those paths when forced to take them due to the placement of other cars on the track. The resulting incident to an AI then just look the same as if the player was driving down a straight and then turned hard right/left into the path of the AI. Is my understanding how the AI works correct? And one more question are there paths different for different car classes? eg are the DTM 2016 paths the same as the GT1 paths? The reason I ask is that if my understanding is correct there are a couple of other tracks where I can 100% recreate the same strange behaviour such as seen in Zolder chicane for the devs to look at. I now think that they are path related issues!
Beyond the name would be interesting some kind of answers I spend a lot of money so there are no answers? This youtuber may need some answers also in 1.34.34. If you have time of course, you're probably very busy improve the game.
This is just my theory here, but I think the problem in those Zolder vids is that the AI regards the very wide curbs as a valid part of the track (as per our cut track rules) and hence doesn't see a reason why it shouldn't go for an attack when there's > 1 car width of space on the inside. But like said above, I don't think it should do that, especially not in a chicane. And afaIk those waypoints/paths are set per class, because with all those very different cars we have, ranging from motorized washing machine to Formula madness, you can't just c&p them over but need to adapt those paths according to the characteristics of the cars.