So you are defending theft, one must conclude, when you say that copyright laws mean nothing if an individual wants to create a mod that are in violation of these. You are lucky that I am no forum mod here. Your wishes do not automatically give you claim. That you want something, does not give you the right to steal it from somebody else.
You are clearly reading waaay too much into his comment to come to this conclusion. Leave all the extreme statements about modded content to the AC forum plenty of opinions about this fiasco there to keep you busy Im sure. Simple banter is all Not really relevant at all here since R3E cant have modded content (of the car/tracks variety), so there is no reason to make that sort of statement either, which is quite inflammatory. Many sim racers believe that people should be able to make free mods and distribute them on forums. It's been a part of sim racing going all the way back to the early days. Even some developers out there started as modding groups. This isnt defending theft by wanting free mods to continue...
You do not get it. I nowhere said that there shall be no modding. All I say is that if you mod your thing by using either copyrighted stuff or have otherwise not asked or not gotten permission to use foreign-made content by the original creator, you steal it then. And that kind of modding is not okay, but you steal it. If you want to make a track or car mod, do it. Its totally okay. But do not base on the work of somebody who did all the job for another sim or project, and you simply "convert" it without his permission. Do not use elements for your track mod, like traffic signs created by somebody else, as an example, if you do not have the creators permission. You have to create these traffic signs yourself then, if you need some but the creator did not give his permission. That you need traffic signs does not give you claim to use the work of somebody else if he does not allow it.If you violate the No of the other, that is theft, plain and simple. If you take something that somebody else has created, or has legal copyright claims for, he owns it. And if you take it against his will, without his permission, you steal it from him. That simple it is. You want apples fromt he tree in your neighbours garden - you ask him if he gives you some. You want to take a ride by car - you ask the bother if you can lease his car. You want to live in that flat - you have to rent it. You want to part this and tzhat part from somebody else's mod - you have to ask for his permission. And the answer of the owners/creators has to be taken as an absolute, period. That one even has to endlessly explain something so elemental and absolutely simple like the difference between doing right and doing wrong today - whats up with times today? I have had stuff stolen from me, from my locker at a former working place. I also have had creative work, a longer passage for a short novel, stolen from me. The first guy I got, and I made him regret it. Do not tell me what attitude I should show towards theft. Legal free modding, respecting the rights of others over their own work, never was my quarrel. Nowhere I even hinted that. I said very clearly from beginning on where the red lines get overstepped. Until reaching these red lines, modding is okay.
But that's the main point, if somebody truely creates sth of his own back, fine. The problem is that many stuff out there is either ripped without permission or *conversions* of ripped content, in other words stolen from someone who put lots of time and energy (=money) into creating those things. That's what modding was, taking an existing base (the game) and adding stuff that you wanted in it and therefore created yourself. Nowadays, with a few honorable exceptions, modding means blatant copying, and most of the time without permission.
Yes, that is free modding, it is absolutely legal and absolutely okay. I'm 100% fine with it. And that is where the red lines have been crossed and theft begins.
Hmm, yeah, probably some misunderstandings going on here Im in complete agreement with that. If someone wants to make a mod completely from scratch... more power to them! Go for it! Well, you should read back your previous comment. The part you quoted from F1Aussie wasnt promoting stolen content. It was saying, "While there are laws about copyright and theft I honestly don't see what the issue is if an individual wNts to create a mod of his favourite car and share it when he is not getting anything in return for it." Which you even quoted, verbatim from his comment. I think you really misinterpreted that, because there is nothing in there that says anything about stolen content being good... So your comment above was a bit confusing, since what you quoted isnt what your issue was with. Your issue is with stolen content being promoted as a mod and being promoted on forums. (paraphrasing) I agree with you, stolen content isnt a good thing and not something I would promote or even use. But the issue above, was regarding scratch made (I presume) content, and I dont have an issue with people making mods if they do it from scratch. And to me, this is exactly what I inferred from F1Aussie's comment above. Cheers
That statement by F1Aussie implies that although there are copyrights, they mean nothing if somebody wants to use copyrighted stuff and does not charge for his final mod. But it plays no role whether a mod costs something or not - using stolen content for creating it in both cases is not okay. I cannot read people's minds, so I take them by their words.
This is the official staff reply on why they had to shut down the possibility of placing mod download in their forum, the reply comes from Aristotelis who is one of the two or three founding members of Kunos Simulazioni and so can be trusted to really know what'S going on, and you can clearly see the indication that they got threatened with law's consequences for they are reponsible - by local Italian laws - for the content in postings and thus can be held responsbile if people post ripped content - and this obviously has beent he place, since he also indicates that other companies have filed complaints, or threatened to do so, over their own game'S content being ripped and posted in AC forums. Sector3 would most likely do exactly the same , if they would be in their situation. Laws are laws. I may be wrong, but I think we have similiar laws in Germany. Maybe even EU-wide!? As I said some posts earlier, it snot just negative that RR allows no such critical modding. It also has some benefits. Assuring a generally high quality level, and avoiding legal turmoils like Kunos faces, are two of them. Thats why I never was angry with S3 not allowing track and car mods. Even more since there are so many cars and tracks, more than I can make frequent use of. I know this limitaiton on modding from two other favouzrite sims of mine, Condor, and Steel Beasts Pro. In both cases it works in favour of the community, the quality of the sims, everybody. I see it positive in RR, too.
I never said copyright law means nothing, you need to chill dude, and how can you steal something from someone if it didn't exist in the first place. You are reading way too much into this. Whoever said anything about ripping anyone else's content? I didn't.
You have made yourself quite clear with this, and I see no way how this could be misinterpreted: Desires and wishes do not give people claim for using stuff that is not theirs. But that is what you implied. TWICE, in both sentences of that quote. You also imply that it is okay as a player/customer to go with a ripped mod car if the car in question cannot be had otherwise. But sorry, no - that is not okay. In real world laws, for example, not only theft is under penalty, but knowingly buying/accepting stolen goods (=Hehlerware) is under penalty, too. Getting a mod of which one knows it is ripped, or of which one could make reasonable conclusions on that it is ripped, is not okay, too. Not by law, if copyright infringements are involved, and not okay by moral standards even if just the right of the creating modder got violated, too. And once again: whether a modder charges for his mod or not, makes absolutely zero difference for the legal and/or moral legitimacy of abusing somebody else's work who did not gave his permission for his work to be used. Charging yes or no just does not matter.
Even after reading and re-reading @F1Aussie quote severaI times I don't see where you get that ? He wrote about someone creating his own mod. While I agree completely with your point of view about ripped content, you seem to miss his point completely...
Skybird, I think you have too much time on your hands if you are trying to micro analyse sonething that isnt there. Seriously let it go. I am talking about mods being created from real life counterparts. There are issues that pop up every now and again, especially on rd where they delete modders work because some car maker or organisation threatens them with legal action. It happened only recently with the f1mods for ams on there. What is the point of modding if you cannot mod real life counterparts that is the whole point of it whether it be cars or tracks. I am not talking about someone ripping someone else's content, I have no idea how you could have got that out of what I wrote. I am sure you will try though. If you don't like modding then fair enough that is your prerogative and I respect that.
Well, I cannot read your mind, so I take your words instead. You formulated your words such that there is an implication that you cannot avoid to note. If you did not mean it, then you have not said what you actually mean. I explained the problem with your implication above somewhere, I think even twice. If that still is not clear enough, I cannot help it. To me, and meanwhile two other people at my end of the wire, said implication is very obvious - it springs to the eye, so to speak, and immediately. Christian Göpfert also seems to have noticed it, so really: it is not just me. However. Maybe indeed a case of porked internet communication, I don't know.
Well my second post said at the beginning of it "create" not rip, thieve or steal. And a couple of people agreed from my end too as you can see above. Let's not go tit for tat and agree that there is a misunderstanding. Australia 0, Germany 0, nil all draw. Lol.
The problem is not so much the creating part, what's problematic is the "sharing" you also mentioned. As long as you do sth for your own enjoyment it's all fair but as soon as you publish sth, you make a claim of (intellectual) ownership, which can be regarded as an infringement by the copyright/trademark owner. While most users might not agree with that, international law, especially in the US and Europe, is pretty unequivocal about such things as the F1 mod. It's their brand, they hold the right to market that brand and in principle everybody publishing sth that uses this brand/trademark has to ask for their permission/buy a license to do so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement In the past most companies didn't care or saw it as free advertising, but that has changed in the last couple years and they view licensing as a means to generate income. Which, I agree, is a pitty but nonetheless legally sound.
I think the whole idea with community based modding is that exactly people do it for the greater gaming community. Most racing mods are based on real life counterparts so we either accept that modding is acceptable or not. If it is deemed to be not acceptable then you would think that sites such as rd would or should strip all mods off their site as there is potential for things like copyright, trademark or ip infringement as you say / know. There have already been some incidence of them deleting mods when asked on rd, you would think they would just do a kunos and delete them all. I think this is the frustrating and confusing thing for the community, understanding what can and can't be done. I am sure that not everyone who mods thinks of the legalities of it or even has the worldly knowledge to understand that side of it anyway. I know that some of the ams f1 mods have popped up again with funny names to try and not be noticed by the powers that be but essentially it is still the same thing as originally.
That is not relevant for the issue discussed. It does not matter why you steal somebody else's work. That you steal it - that is the problem. What you use it for, means nothing. Same regarding copyrighted stuff. Oh, it is acceptable - when certain preconditions are met. You need permission to use elements in your mod that are not yours. That simple it is. Why making it so complicated? Mine, not mine - easy to differentiate. In fact they have removed mods in the past, and run a stricter regime than some others. Unwissenheit schützt vor Strafe nicht, a German proverb, it means: lacking understanding does not protect you from the consequences of not knowing. For the community it is easy to know what is morally okay or/and legal by the law, and what not. Its about the difference between "mine" and "yours". Most elemental, natural property rights we talk of, plain and simple. When you write a book and publish a quote from another book by somebody else in it, but do not mark it as a quote, its called plagiatarism, do that in your diploma paper, and you can even loose your academic grade, for it is rated as fraud. If you correctly mark it as a quote, but did not gain permission by the publisher and/or author to use it, or if it is your diploma paper and you violated certain academic standards for how to correctly use other material for quoting, it can be a copyright infringement. Its obvious! You take four lines from somebody else's song and put it into your own composition, but you have no permission to do so: the same, you stole it, then. You copy an article from an online newspaper and post it in full in a forum without the newsdpaper giving your permission: the forum owner can be held responsible in your place (especially when he got warned before), he pays the bill you footed by your violation. I admit I fell guilty of this myself sometimes in past years... Heck, often authors or copyright holders even write at the beginning or end of their weork what is and what is not okay to do with their work! So do modders. Some say clearly they are fine with having it used, chnaged, spread at variopus soruces, they do not care. Others say clearly they do not want that and do not want it posted at other sites than those where they have set it up themselves. Read it, respect it, and that's it. You take a mod for rF, lets say a track, simply convert it for lets say AC, and release it, and the original author never gave his permission - its theft what you did, then. You do the same real world track, but create it all by yourself, by your own hand's work - everything is fine. Is this so difficult...? Its not difficult. Its neither "confusing", nor "complicated", F1Aussie. But many people out there , especially younger ones, just pick every straw to make excuses in favour of letting these practices appear as acceptable, because the simple truth is: they do not care at all and are only interested to get "their" mods likie the junkey wants his next shot, and may the world blow up meanwhile, they do not care. Give me my daily mod dose, may it be legal or stolen, ripped or original, I don't care. Very many people do not care, and take just every excuse to get away with this attitude. So do some modders, they just give a rat's azz for other modder'S wishes or ownership of their own work. And that desinterest and lacking respect is the real problem. People just don't care - and think that gives them claim, that gives them rights, opportunity and the chance to get away with it gives moral immunity. But it doesn't. I think such people are best served if becoming the victim of theft and robbery or burglary themselves, having things stolen from them that are dear to them, that they had to work for themselves, and that they had paid for with their own precious money. Sometimes pain can be the best of teachers.
You are obviously a well educated eloquent deep thinker. Out of curiosity is english your first or second language? Your sentences and wording is structured better than 95% of native english language folks.
Irony, or not? I'm German. But i am not pedantic about the discussed thing because my German-ness, but because I got hit by theft repeatedly, as told earlier. I know it from the receiving end of things. English is my secondary language since 35 years. I consider my skill to be average only, my vocabulary is limited. Plus I type way to fast and so create a lot of unneeded typos that I do not care to correct due to laziness. Once learned in the wrong way means having learned it wrong forever. My typing will stay bad, therefore.