that's the thing - no, you can't. not until a certain level of skill is already achieved. that's not how practice works. human brain is a huge pattern matching machine, and the fewer variables there are between two otherwise similar experiences, the better the brain is able to discern what is relevant to the experience, and what isn't. taking different corners while trying to learn cornering only creates more noise for the brain to filter out, because the experience is not identical each time you try it. there's a reason why people drill cornering on figure 8's. but it will be. you'll become better at taking a particular corner, and others like it! but that's a different issue! that's what hotlapping is for! for some reason you're thinking of racing skill as this some kind of huge and indivisible ball of irreducible complexity, which can only be trained by hotlapping or otherwise running whole tracks. it's not! it is a skill, just like any other, and consists of smaller, lower level skills, like braking, throttle management, steadiness of steering inputs, "feeling of a car", learning to "read" force feedback, etc. different practice routines for different skills! the "stringing things together" part is important, and is learned by hotlapping, but by foregoing more basic elements, you're assuming that there's something to string together in the first place, when there might not be. you can't string together something that doesn't exist yet - you have to have all the pieces in place first. of course you can build up the pieces as you go, but it won't be as efficient as a dedicated practice drill. your argument is essentially, drilling subset A of your technique doesn't make sense because it doesn't exercise subset B of your technique (or your technique in its entirety). well, d'uh! of course a drill A will not improve skill B, but only improve skill A, but that's exactly the point - sometimes it is necessary to practice a specific skill, because you know you suck at that specific thing! no. there are four corners on that track, two fast, two slow. fast ones i just looked at the braking points of the AI, and went from there. good enough. the slower ones i couldn't figure out before i did the braking drills in GTR2. and since the two corners are similar, i killed two birds with one stone. the fact that there are different kinds of corners out there! isn't it obvious, that, from your own words, by drilling a single corner, i only learn how to take that one corner, and others like it? so, by extension, if i want to learn a different type of corner, i have to drill that for a while, before i can take that corner, and others like it? that's not really how it works. there are some sections of the track where there are two corners in a row, one right after the other, and i also want to be able to practice that. there's a reason why i mentioned "free start/stop" - it's because i don't really want a single corner, i want to practice arbitrary section of a track - no matter how big or how small, and no matter where it's located. FFS maybe i want to practice pit entry! the important thing is that i would like to be able to drill a particular part of the track. you're missing the forest from the trees. of course these things matter, but they don't matter if you can't corner if your life depended on it. and this is what the drills are about - building a baseline, which you can develop further to account for fuel, tyre wear, et al. we're not talking tenths of a second here. we're talking few seconds. you're concentrating on minutia and are missing the big picture. this "training mode" is not about shaving off a few tenths off an already great lap (although i would argue it could be used like that), it's to drill in the basics to improve precision and free the mind up for more important tasks, like the ones you described above (taking tyre wear, weather etc. into account). that's because you're comparing the wrong things. a drumroll is muscle memory. being able to successfully apply it in a music context, is not - it's much more than that. same here - taking a corner is muscle memory. "feeling the car", braking technique, rolling the throttle on corner exit, steady steering inputs - all of this is muscle memory. using them in context, is not muscle memory, but that is not what's being practiced by drills - it's practiced by hotlapping and racing. like the other guy, you're essentially saying that just because the drill doesn't practice every skill imaginable, it's no good, while it's exactly the opposite - the point of a drill is to practice a specific subset of skills and disregard everything else. first of all, paragraphs! punctuation! argh! it's hard to read. more to the point, it depends on perspective. if your cornering is good and you just need more practice on the track, hotlapping will help you. if you only consistently fail in one corner, while all the others are more or less OK, consider the following: say, it takes 2 minutes to complete a lap, and 20 seconds to run that particular corner. you spend an hour hotlapping, i spend an hour drilling that particular corner. in the end, you ran that corner 30 times, while i ran it 180 times. who do you think will improve more, on this particular track? it's a game of numbers. practice improves things, and if you suck at a particular thing, more practice is better than less practice. hotlapping is largely useful to bring up your overall knowledge of the track (the "stringing things together" part), but that presupposes that you're able to abstract yourself away from the minutia of cornering and concentrate on improving your performance on the track. if you're struggling to provide smooth steering inputs on a corner, hotlapping won't help you, but cornering drills will. for the record, i don't much care about hotlapping. that's not my goal. i just want to feel like i know what i'm doing behind the wheel. that's not why i started this thread. it's not about me sucking and blaming it on the lack of "training mode". --------------------- this thread has given me an idea. does anyone have experience with, say, rFactor 2 modding? do you think it would be feasible to cobble up something like this in rFactor 2? it likely would involve scripting, which is just about the easiest thing in the world for me, so i'm not worried about that aspect - more about the feasibility of the whole thing.
GTR2 is about a fiver on steam right now.........time to revisit the past rather than flogging this dead horse, Burillo? Please note that I have been supporting your arguments, so I am not saying "go away you silly man!" Your arguments have merit. The counter arguments have merit. Who wins? Either way, nothing is likely to be implemented in time for it to help you. Might as well join the hotlappers and see what happens - some practice is better than no practice (not according to my neighbours, though) Lastly for ChurchBwoy : Have you tried starting with a manual gear box? It might fix your problem, and it will certainly increase the amount of control you have over your car - after a while changing gear becomes subconscious anyway, just like in a real car. Do you have an x-box controller plugged in and lying upside down on the floor somewhere - that has screwed me over more than once (shame on me the second and third times). Calibrate pedals to make sure the brake isn't slightly on. Some pedal sets have only 1 input - you can brake OR you can accelerate.....that really sucks! It has to be something 'stupid' as a quick google search found nobody else with the issue. That's probably why you didn't get a response - plus only 4 people are reading this thread anymore. The rest are hotlapping their little bottoms off. But as Burillo said, starting a new thread is your best bet.
this hasn't been demonstrated so far. the "counter arguments" are all stemming from misunderstanding about the meaning of the word "practice", which is why i'm forced to repeat myself over and over again (the irony!) and, as you say, flog this dead horse. not really about that. it won't help me, it might help someone else down the line when it does get implemented, and it's a useful feature in my opinion - it's worth it for that reason alone. too many assumptions about me i already own GTR2, and the fact that i was so successful after doing drills in GTR2 driving school has prompted me to create this thread in the first place. and, i never said i stopped practicing because there's no driving school in R3E.
And now you are arguing with the one person that agrees with you! My finger hovered over the purchase button of GTR2 last night........partially driven by your arguments. I said the counter arguments had merit, because they were put forward by seemingly intelligent individuals - whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant to my judgement of their merit.
Never mind, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. As for the rF2 bit, I doubt it can be done, although I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of modding is....limited, to put it politely. What you're talking about would entail basically teleporting the car to a new location, and I doubt the ISI engine allows for that. I suppose what you could do was mod the track itself, removing barriers and the sort, enabling you to circle back to the corner faster, but aside from that......
Nearly forgot.... @churchbwoy you may want to check if you have manual clutch switched on. If you have auto-gearing and manual clutch it'll drop out of gear every time the revs gets too low.
i'm not playing teams here, you say something that is incorrect - i correct you that's not what "merit" is merit isn't judged by personality of the individual putting the argument forward. doesn't rFactor do rolling starts? it could be represented by restarting the race, no?
sorry, missed that bit. thing is, while driving school mode in GTR2 is great, it's quite limited in what it can offer. the braking exercises are really you drilling one corner. there are a few cornering drills as well, but by and large the majority of exercises are "track coaching", which are basically sector-by-sector on tracks, and the AI isn't that fast anyway (even i can beat it relatively easily, even though i can't corner for shit), so you'd be better off running hotlaps with ghosts in R3E by the time you get to those exercises. it's only really useful if you really suck, like i do. if you can keep a decent pace already, they won't do much for you, and hotlapping in R3E will be time better spent. and that's really what my suggestion was for - those experienced enough don't need this kind of "training mode", it's for those of us who are 10 seconds off pace that this thing would be very helpful. hell, even sector-by-sector ghosts would help immensely.
Speaking of GTR2, while it's without a doubt still worth a buy you need a few mods to make it worthwhile. Definitely need the improved FFB settings (also work for GTL and Race07 btw). Can't remember the name of it off-hand, but it's in the RaceDepartment GTR2 sub-forum. Also there's the reworked AI, and if you want the new GTR3 cars, there's the NAGP mod. But I digress.
oh, no doubt about that. i own the complete SimBin bundle, it's a lot of fun. not interested in new cars/tracks (there's too much already!), but i gotta find those AI/FFB mods. if i can win a race in Monza during my first ever 40 minutes with a wheel, the AI definitely needs improvement!
GTR2 FFB settings: (you need to overwrite the corresponding lines in your .plr file BACK UP FIRST!) Spoiler FFB Device Type="4" // Type of FFB controller: 0=none 1=wheel, 2=stick/custom, 3=rumble pad. FFB Effects Level="1" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom. FFB Gain="1.00000" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0. FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis. FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis. FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.07000" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration. FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.03500" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point). FFB steer vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude). FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB steer force average weight="0.30000" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency. FFB steer force exponent="0.75000" // Steering force output "sensitivity". Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity. FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction). FFB steer force output max="1.70000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0 FFB steer force grip weight="0.25000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force. FFB steer force grip factor="1.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6. How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight. FFB steer update thresh="0.0001500000" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate. FFB steer friction coefficient="-0.15000" // Coefficient to use for steering friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0 FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0 FFB steer damper coefficient="0.20000" // Coefficient to use for steering damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0 FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0 FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.40000" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency. Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50 FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.09000" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point). FFB throttle vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude). FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0) FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.90000" // Scales actual brake rotational frequency to force feedback vibration frequency. FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.09000" // Magnitude of brake vibration at 0mph (reference point). FFB brake vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude). FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0) FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.25000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect. FFB rumble strip freq mult="0.50000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev. FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down. FFB rumble strip pull factor="-0.70000" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5. FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.07500" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0) FFB jolt magnitude="1.30000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0. GTR2 Reborn (the AI mod): http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=34358 (again, read the fine print. ) NAGP mod ( New-ish GTR3 cars) http://www.northamericangp.com/ (You'll need to register first to download IIRC)
Whoops, strike the last one. Seems like NAGP have switched to Assetto Corsa. I'll see if I can find a link to the GTR2 mod somewhere else.
nah, don't need new tracks/cars, as i said, there's too much already, and i plan to move to R3E as my only sim over time anyway.
HUGE SARCASM TAG after 3 pages if your that bad maybe stop typing and get practicing in any form... Andi
Irony : Offering a bagful of new tracks to a bloke who just wants a way to train on two corners! (Joke!Joke! For goodness sake, that was a freakin Joke!) "I plan to move to R3E as my only sim over time anyway." Plans are useless. I have been 'planning' to chose a car and stick with it, to the exclusion of all others. How's that working out for me? Raced the Skip Barber, The SRF, and the Rookie Mazda on iRacing. The Audi TT, Audi LMS, and NSU old thingy on R3E. Since Sunday! (Also Skied, Snowboarded, Parasailed and walked in Steep.) Yes, I have a full time job. Unfortunately my concentration span is abo Edit: ooh, that's a big TAG Andi! Perhaps he is at work and on the forums, unable to race....not that I think anybody would go on forums while at work......(walks away whistling)
this is the kind of thing people say when they can no longer find anything meaningful to contribute to the topic. exactly. but hey, let's just put "HUGE SARCASM TAG" and gleefully assume stuff about someone with no basis whatsoever, because it makes us feel so good about ourselves! (to be clear, the last part is directed towards Andi, as this kind of input isn't constructive)
It's just internet humour, Burillo. I have tried to cut down a bit, especially after being banned from the iRacing forums (they thought a picture of Wolfie Smith (tragic revolutionary Robert Lyndsey) was a political statement!). Compared with iRacing Forums, this one is a haven of good manners. Not all Trolls are mean. And you can tell how seriously Andi takes himself from his Forum picture!
Been there, done that. Still doing it, come to think of it. Far too many games, combined with the attention-span of a butterfly on cocaine....