News Physics Update: Touring Classics, DTM 1992, Group 4, Procar

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Alex Hodgkinson, Dec 10, 2019.

  1. Alex Hodgkinson

    Alex Hodgkinson Sector3 Developer

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    Before anything, the #1 rule here is that old setups will not work with any updated cars. Trying to use these setups will result in a very poor handling car. They must be deleted!

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    Touring Classics are based around the Group A series, which takes production road cars and allows some modifications. The exception here is the Skyline R32 with which we decided to make the Group-N version, because it's a fairer fight. A Group A Skyline did exist but totally wiped the floor with the opposition in the early 90s. Group N allows fewer modifications, which brings it down to similar performance as the others in Touring Classics.

    As with the other updated classes, everything here is brand new. It's a ground up rebuild with no stone left un-turned. That means any setups you may have created before this update won't work and will need to go in the bin.

    Downforce is none existent across the board, with all the cars actually exhibiting slight lift at high speed, although far less than a modern road car. Drag coefficients are fairly high so top speeds aren't too high, but that may be a good thing considering high speed lift! Tyres and suspension have both received a lot of attention and are up to date with all of the latest features - see other thread detailing general developments here.

    BMW 635i
    Has a long wheelbase, a relatively high centre of gravity and soft suspension. If you're used to driving GT3s, take a deep breath and slow yourself down - nothing will feel like it's happening quickly when you first hop in. When you get in the zone, driving this is one constant slide which is super rewarding when it clicks.

    BMW E30 M3
    This one is probably the simplest to drive out of the box with very few quirks. It's engine likes to rev but it only has five gears, so you'll need to stay on top of the revs.

    Volvo 240 Turbo

    Affectionately known as the flying brick, this one will probably take the most getting used to. It has a solid rear axle, so rear suspension is not independent. To help traction and rear end grip, the rear suspension is very soft, but that means it will lift it's front inside wheel off the ground when cornering. So, if you're thinking about going near the brakes as you turn, you've got quite a high chance of locking that unloaded front up. Turbo technology was still very much in development in the mid 80s, so turbo lag is very much something to wrestle with. There is one saving grace though: from 1986 the car raced with traction control. So that's one less thing to trouble you.

    Nissan Skyline R32
    This car is four wheel drive, which means it has an incredible launch off turns, particularly slow ones. However, you have to drive it correctly in order to make the most out of it. The correct technique is very much like the front-wheel-drive approach of slow in, fast out. Mashing the power too soon can result in chronic understeer which will see you ploughing off track in the worse of cases. It's also the heaviest car in this class, but brakes are no bigger than it's opponents, so watch those braking distances as it can't stop as quickly.


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    The 1992 DTM series was also run to Group A regulations, but they're a generation on from our Touring Classics. The cars are lighter, they have more power, better brakes with ABS, and sticker tyres, so lap times are quite a bit quicker.
    Considering how popular and loved this car set is, the decision to update every aspect of their handling wasn't taken lightly. However liked the previous version was, they were a throwback to old thinking regarding car handling. The way cars would hold a constant yaw angle in every turn and pretty much hold on forever reminded me more of a slot car than anything I've ever been strapped in to. Handling like that does have a time and place in gaming, but we're being a sim here.
    We can be a lot more accurate now in all areas. Aerodynamics, engine behaviour, suspension geometry, tyres, dampers etc have all had hours and hours of development time.


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    Group 4 existed under several different guises over the years. The version we're representing here in RaceRoom began in 1970 and was contested by production based exotica such as the Ferrari 365 GTB/4, De Tomaso Pantera, BMW M1 and the Porsche 934. It was replaced by the new Group B GT class in 1983, where several Group 4 cars were allowed to run, hence we have included some liveries from that era too.

    The class features manual gearboxes, lots of power, very little downforce and in the case of the Porsche, a LOT of turbo lag. Back in the late 70s/early 80s crossply tyres were the norm, with radials only starting to appear in high end motorsport from around 1983. A crossply tyre uses a stiff sidewall to support the tyre, with a relatively flexible tread section in the middle. This gives them a distinctive difference in feel to a modern radial. They typically operate at much wider slip angles and are more forgiving at the limit without the dreaded snap-back a radial can give you. Due to the stiff sidewalls they do not respond well to camber, and much prefer to sit perpendicular to the road surface. Big camber angles with a crossply tyre will only serve to overheat the sidewall and reduce grip.

    In the damper department, they're a much simpler affair than a modern unit. Separate high speed damping has not been invented yet, so all you get it a low speed adjuster. This means you have to consider behaviour over bumps as much as general handling needs when adjusting them as you can't separate the two elements out.



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    The BMW M1 Procar series took identical cars, Formula One drivers and pitted them against each other on international circuits in support of Grand Prixs. The Procar is lighter than the Group 4 version as sprint-type components are used. The engine's rev limit has also been raised, allowing for a bit more power to be freed up. All these changes together mean that can lap a few seconds quicker than the Group 4 car, even though both use the same tyres.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  2. Patrick Schilhan

    Patrick Schilhan Well-Known Member

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    The description sounds great! I will do an extensively test of the updated physics between Christmas and New Year. Look forward to this ...
     
  3. Fleskebacon

    Fleskebacon Well-Known Member

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    I am going to drive around in the "new" 240T and E30 M3 all Christmas. They both feel absolutely wonderful. Thanks a bunch!
     
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  4. Zziggy

    Zziggy Active Member

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    I have very uneven tyre heating in the Nissan - rear always much lower than front. I don´t know if it is my "driving" style (little throttle throughout the corner) or is this normal for the Nissan? Any setup suggestions?
     
  5. Thomas Jansen

    Thomas Jansen Sector3 Developer Beta tester

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    The AWD loads the front tires much more, so it’s normal yes :p
     
  6. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Active Member

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    The Group4 Porsche 934 is an absolutely blast!
    Amazing car.
    Keep it on.
     
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  7. Jukka Karppinen

    Jukka Karppinen Well-Known Member

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    Group 4 M1 is now my favourite on this sim. I tought it would not be as fun as Procar but i was wrong, somehow it seems to suit better to my driving style than bit lighter Procar. And the sound is just fantastic, nicely different than Procar, could listen that sexy intake noise all day long. Icing of the cake would be have some difference in cocpit details, different steering wheel or something like that.
    But the physics, just fantastic.
     
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  8. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Well-Known Member

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    Upshifting in M1 Procar is a bit weird. After releasing the clutchpedal it takes 2 or 3 seconds, where rpms on the revmeter and soundwise do not move.
     
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  9. Arthur Spooner

    Arthur Spooner Well-Known Member

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    I know what you mean. But this behaviour was already there before the latest update. It's when you keep your revs up during upshifts and you release the clutch, the revs stay where they are (also sound wise) and the car accelerates until it reaches the speed that matches the revs and and from this point everything goes on like normal. This doesn't happen when you fully release the throttle during upshifts. Strange behaviour, but nothing new... ;)
     
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  10. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    Can you post a video with your pedal inputs on screen so we can see what you mean?
     
  11. Zziggy

    Zziggy Active Member

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    Thank you for bringing Niki Lauda back in the No.5 Group 4 BMW M1!
     
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  12. fischhaltefolie

    fischhaltefolie Well-Known Member

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    Being a noob in recording and posting videos, I tried again and realised it was my own fault. When I applied throttle and the clutch was not totally released, revs stayed high for some seconds as if clutch discs were spinning. So, if I do my shifting in a clean and proper way, everything works as it's supposed to be.
    Sorry for useless post. :oops:
     
  13. Flintenwilly

    Flintenwilly Well-Known Member

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    Tested the Grp. 4 M1 today on nords. Its really disturbing how easy to drive that M1 is in comparison to the 911. Wile having constantly "oh shit" moments in the Porsche you get very enjoyable controlable slides in the M1. Alsp it has much less understeer than the procar version. Its very neutral.

    I did only 1 lap in the M1, instant a 7:48. Than switched to the porsche and i think i am not a noob anymore on this car. after 5 attempts (3 times smashing in the wall) my best was a 7:55.

    But i think the Porsche is better on the brakes now, was there a chance or has he got new tires? Much more predictable.

    But in the end the Porsche, for me, is way more fun. A true beast.

    Edit: Looked at my leaderboard time. and i nearly bet my Procartime. With the first try. This shows even more how easy the M1 Grp4 is:p
     
  14. ravey1981

    ravey1981 Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    To help with this add some lower dead zone to the clutch pedal. It means you have a bit of free movement at the start of the pedal. 15% or so is enough
     
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  15. Jukka Karppinen

    Jukka Karppinen Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, i personally don't find Porsche much harder to drive. Sure BMW is more balanced and with Porsche you have to be more careful with throttle on corners because lot's of power and turbo lag, but it's also very controllable with it's super communicative feedback. True joy to catch slides! In Nurburgring my laptimes are on same second with both cars.

    Different beasts for sure but both are great fun to drive :)
     
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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  16. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member Beta tester

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    If you try the same 2 cars on something like Red Bull Ring, the 934 should make mince meat of the M1. Nords will favor the M1 a lot more due to how bouncy and unstable the 934 is in high speed corners.
     
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  17. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Active Member

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    Good evening.

    I just drove a couple of races on the Nürburgring Sprint with the Porsche 934. It looks like the M1 are overpowered. They drive me and the rest of the Porsche away extremely quickly. They are not available ..yes the Porsche is difficult to drive but in my opinion something is wrong with the BOP. Do you have this problem too?
     
  18. Vale

    Vale Member

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    Massively disappointed by the changes to DTM92. The cars are good for nothing but doing donuts now as they just spin out under braking and acceleration. I guess the devs wanted to make this some sort of pro-gamer class and sell more high end wheels and stuff, but for a casual gamer with a digital controller like me, this class is a now a no-go zone. Real shame as before, it was a really fun class where you could just instantly enjoy a quick race without needng a crew chief and all the high end egamer gubbins - now it´s just a challenge to complete a lap without spinning off.
     
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  19. Koly™

    Koly™ Active Member

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    before the update they were on th rails, now they need some skills, and I rarely spin, it's not cause you can't control now that they are bad, there is a learning curve, try the Formula without TC and come back to DTM 92, you will find them easy.

    I admit for a controller it's a nightmare, but it's not the Raceroom physics fault, the reason is the bad gamepad implementation, for gamepad, GRID 2019 and F1 2019 are the best, Codemasters have a very good gamepad implementation.

    Maybe try assist.
     
  20. Vale

    Vale Member

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    I am not saying they are bad - I am sure the esports guys will love them. The issue for me is that the fun factor is gone and as you say, now you either need an analogue controller to measure inputs or those horrible arcade type assists, which are akin to doping in cycling.

    In the 2 online races I have tried in DTM and TC, it´s just a crash fest as people are spinning off the track left right and centre. I must be getting too old for this sh1t.

    Before, raceroom actually had a USP with the Dtm class and now it´s just a reheated inferior version of AC for a very niche audience where there are more games on offer than players.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019